0:04 And then that technology can order those priorities in terms of what needs to be done first. How do you know what is good? Like, is this a valuable use of time in terms of what you're going to end up potentially selling it for? It's better with humans.

0:20 Left school with no qualifications, spent a career masking, working 13-hour days to hide the things that took him longer than anyone else. Then got diagnosed with ADHD in his mid-50s, and everything made sense. My guest today describes it like this. A Mac and a PC do 90% of the same things.

0:40 Different code underneath, same end goal. We've just built a workplace that only ships with one operating system. In this episode, we get into why most reasonable adjustments cost nothing. Why someone turning up late is a question rather than a problem.

0:57 And how he automated a week of admin away so he could spend his time on the work that actually matters. We also get into the harder question. If AI is taking the entry-level jobs, where does the next generation of expertise come from? Don't ask what's going to change in the next year.

1:14 Ask what isn't. Stick around. Today, I'm joined by Nick Silverstone. Nick and I met through attending a couple of the same courses over the last six months.

1:23 Nick is an award-winning fractional MD and senior leader's ADHD coach. He's also co-founder of Creative Minds Alliance ADHD. With an eclectic career spanning property, SaaS, recruitment, IT, healthcare and marketing, Nick brings deep commercial expertise to the businesses he works with

1:45 and has helped build multi-million pound companies. Diagnosed with ADHD in his mid-50s, Nick uses his lived experience alongside his certified coaching practice to help senior leaders and SME founders unlock performance and scale sustainability.

2:01 Nick, welcome. Great to have you on board. Thanks, Shaun, for having me on board. So with the wealth of the experience,

2:11 I'm just having to think about where do we start? But I think a good place would be really with all that experience and then with your diagnosis of ADHD, how has that really kind of shaped things for you since then?

2:26 It's funny because I guess if you would have asked me that question before my diagnosis, I would have said, well, I don't know. I don't know. I would have said everything, you know, I was doing really well. I was building my career.

2:37 I'd had quite an eclectic, as you pointed out there, career, which I always saw as a bit of a negative jumping from kind of one industry to another. But actually what that gave me was good commercial experience, if you like, and good grounding in different industries that I could then put to good use.

2:59 So it's changed everything for me in as much as, I guess, I kept a lot of things masked. I kept a lot of things under wraps, and I struggled with my own kind of self-confidence. And my own,

3:09 the way I reflected on myself was quite negative, if you like. And I suffered a lot of things. So I used to work a lot harder for things like procrastination and presenteeism and things like that. And I guess now I understand not to do those things.

3:20 So it's made me be able to deal with things in a much more flexible way. I think you know, it's not, this is what I'm trying to do. It's really, it's not just, it's not a big deal. I've got a lot of things.

3:32 in a far more productive way and therefore to help the people that I work with in a more productive way that's really interesting because it it I mean it highlights the importance of of self-awareness but obviously this is something that's that is a little bit deeper as well isn't it it's not just self-awareness but it's understanding that your brain is operating in a certain way that is

3:55 different to how other people's brains are working and understanding where they're at with that now I have certain things that my brain does and some people that have more experience with ADHD have said oh it sounds like you you know you might be somewhere in there I haven't been tested because I'm happy to operate within the things operate but I do have the certain things I

4:18 describe like for example one thing that helped me recently I was talking with somebody was that I my brain can go into a loop so particularly can happen if I'm with my wife and I think like maybe something negative happened and she I will need to I will need to close that loop but she's like I'm not in the

4:37 place to close loop and so and I was talking to somebody and realising that oh okay I need to I need something to do I need to actually mitigate that in some way so now so explaining to Julia she now understands okay I just even if you just say to me okay look you Let's just pause and we will come back to this in five minutes

5:00 or something that means that I can go, okay, we're going to close that loop. And that helps me. And interestingly, I found it doesn't happen as much because it's almost like I have that reassurance that I know

5:11 what's going to happen. Of course, I know other people that have even more challenges, things like time blindness and other things that mean. And with those people, they help me to understand

5:24 that there's allowances that I need to make. We will agree how we're going to do it. If I'm going to come and meet him, it's okay. Rather than us, we'll plan to meet in a range of a time.

5:36 And he will call me when he's 10 minutes away from the location we're going to meet at. Rather than me wait for an hour, an hour and a half somewhere, which sometimes is okay.

5:47 If I'm working, I can just be doing stuff and I'll get there whenever. But we found actually we can, we can, working together, we can find something that works for both of us. How have you found that in terms of helping people to work with you

6:02 in terms of to get the best from you? Yeah. So it's funny. You start that conversation by talking about brains kind of working in a different way.

6:14 And I very often use an analogy between people who are neurotypical and people who are neurodivergent, which is as a, as a Mac slut myself,

6:25 as an Apple slut myself, I, I would see myself as, as a, as a Mac, whereas someone who's neurodivergent, sorry,

6:34 neurotypical I would see as a, as a PC, for instance. Now, 90% of what you do on both of those are exactly the same.

6:43 You do your word processing, you do your email, you do look at web browsing, whatever it might be, but Windows,

6:52 a very good environment for big, big organisations. You can put your security, as you know, from your background, you know,

6:57 you can custom the environment in a much better way, make it more secure. But with a, with a Mac,

7:03 it's very much very good from a creative point of view and from the tools that it provides you that are kind of built in. So at the top, they've both got different strengths at the bottom.

7:13 They've got weaknesses, obviously, but the important thing here is that they work in parallel. What the different operating systems, the code they're written in is different to get to the same end goal. If you,

7:24 and that is how I would describe the difference with someone who is, as I said, neurodivergent or neurotypical. And it's one of the reasons why sometimes I guess we,

7:36 we live in a neurotypical world. So the workplace is designed for a neurotypical. So those things around time blindness around procrastination are things which the neurodivergent brain struggles with,

7:51 but yet it's very good at things like crisis, crisis management. It's very good at thinking, you know, big picture thinking it's,

7:58 you know, there's things that it is very good at, but maybe some of the things that we take for granted that frustrates other people,

8:05 like being late, losing your keys, not necessarily being high, you know, focused on what your partner is saying,

8:11 because you're hyper focusing on something. These are things that can get in the way of relationships of in the workplace, if you like. And I guess, again,

8:23 going back to something you said, Shaun, you know, in, in your kind of opening there was for me, it doesn't matter whether you have a neurodivergent or not.

8:32 If it doesn't cause you a problem, if it's not detrimentally affecting you, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter at all.

8:40 So it's only if something is causing you anxiety, if it is affecting in the way you take feedback, if it's affecting your productivity, if it's affecting, a relationship, then it's something that needs to be looked at.

8:55 So probably 70% of the people that I work with are undiagnosed and they may just, they may be neurotypical, but there's just bits that they can't do for instance. But then I guess for someone like me hitting my mid fifties,

9:14 leaving school with no qualifications, feeling like I, there was something not quite right with me for me, getting a diagnosis was game changing because it kind of was validation of, if you like, of where I,

9:29 my strengths, I could focus on those and I can find ways of managing the bits that didn't work well. So, you know, that's where I can now help,

9:39 I guess other business leaders, senior leaders with is trying to get that understanding. So for me, the starting point is always understanding why is it that you struggle,

9:51 with that particular task? What is it that is in the blocker for that? Because I think if people understand the reason why they are struggling, and again, I don't diagnose,

10:00 so I don't bring that into the conversation unless the other person brings it into the conversation. It is just understanding what causes it. How can we find a way to mitigate that or reframe it or, you know,

10:13 get it, get that monkey off your shoulder. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.

10:18 I think that's really helpful because I think, it's like a breadth of things, isn't it? And I think in, in, in my life, I've seen it where there are some things I've been able to overcome, you know,

10:30 whether that's through like some therapy or there's various rehearsal development things that you do and you can grow. And there have been some things that just, you know, I would just keep hitting a hitting a block on, I mean, procrastination is, is a,

10:45 is a classic one and as well in terms of, and what I bought or what I found through my, through my life is, is particularly as a working for myself has been one of going, if I actually choose my work,

10:58 depending upon what's going on with me, if I give myself an opportunity, say to be creative, because that's what I need to do right now, then I then find the other pieces of work I can then go and do.

11:10 And so it actually helps me to understand that I can't just the certain things. If you just want me to push through something, I can do it, but it will leave me,

11:22 it will leave me wrecked and then you expect me to do something else. I can't do it. So, yeah, but I love that because you found your own tactics in a way, which is kind of one of the things I talk about with people is kind of gamifying what you do. So it's the kind of reward.

11:38 If I do those tasks that I really don't want to do, but I can then do something that I'm, I want to do that. I enjoy doing. So again,

11:45 one of the differences between a neurodivergent and a neurotypical are people who are neurodivergent are, importance led people that are so neurotypical people that are neurodivergent are interest led. So again, the way you tackle tasks,

12:02 the way that you might struggle with something around procrastination might be because it just doesn't interest you, or it's just not something that kind of gets that dopamine going. So again, there is, there's ways of dealing with that. So again,

12:16 the environment when you work, how you gamify, how you kind of look at, tackling that task, do you need to do it? Can someone else take that off your plate?

12:26 So there's, there are different ways of looking at that. But again, it is, I love that phrase of, um,

12:31 you know, how do you eat an elephant and it's one bite at a time. So you, you tackle everything individually and you look at what those blockers are and then you find a solution for that. Yeah.

12:43 That's really interesting. And the whole interest led that resonates with me because I'm, oh yeah, sometimes my wife would say to me, can you deal,

12:50 can you, you know, how do you feel about that? Yeah. And I go, I don't want to do it. And it's not like, I like,

12:55 and it's like, and you feel kind of bad cause you're going, well, but actually different brains, why different? Some people are wired in the way of you need something done. I'll do it.

13:03 And I do do a lot of things. I do help a lot of people, but sometimes there are things where I just think to myself, I really don't feel,

13:10 and it isn't a being uncomfortable. It's just, and isn't to say I don't do those things, but it's recognising that if I go and do something I really don't know what to do, it's going to be a struggle.

13:21 It's probably going to be, it's going to be tiring and I'm probably going to feel the after effects of, of doing that, doing that as well.

13:27 So it is that kind of understanding that people have. And I think with what you're saying, I think it is so freeing, isn't it?

13:34 So understand that actually we're all wired in different ways, but like you said, you know, like this different version of windows. So we have a different, we have say some people that the base base code and there,

13:45 but they're coded a bit differently. And then others can have significantly different code. And that means that they will work in a, in a different way. And I think that's a great analogy,

13:54 but it's free and it's freeing said to know, okay, well actually I don't have to be like that person. I mean, it might be a challenge because you don't, maybe if people,

14:03 if you don't fit into the norm, I've heard people say that as well. Go, I, you know, for years they've wondered why do I not, why do I not quite fit in?

14:12 Why do I not quite feel understood? And they realise it's not there. I hear that all the time, Shaun. And, and again, you know what, what people like me used to do was,

14:21 I'm asked for much of my career. So I, the things that I thought I should be able to do, I just took me a lot longer. So then I would end up doing 12,

14:31 13 hour dates because I didn't want to be seen as failing that I'll not be able to do it. Whereas now the validation, the actually not needing to mask and just being honest with myself

14:42 and those around me and just saying, you know what? That is not my strength. I'm not going to do that. Or maybe someone else is better to do that is better.

14:49 And I guess that's where, that those conversations are really helpful for, for people being able to be kind of not, not needing to feel like they need to change that anymore and can be themselves. But again, going back to that,

15:04 that that's where it can have an impact in the workplace. And I, before my understanding of it, I was absolutely guilty of this. So I worked for a company and our company had a way of working. So, you know,

15:17 we called it our company, way of working the name of the brand. And we were, we were very kind of fixed on our operating systems.

15:24 And what we felt was best practice because we had spent a long time to, to get them right. And we believe that they were industry kind of higher standards, but it didn't take into account that people were,

15:39 have had different ways of working. And so, so when people work at home, when people have people around them,

15:48 when you know what time of day they do it, how, how it's linked to nutrition or to exercise can all have an impact on those things.

15:57 And again, you know, do they have, do they have traits of autism with their ADHD? Do they have traits of dyslexia or OCD or hypermobility? All of these things can eat,

16:08 can have an effect on their ability to do certain tasks. So, and again, that that relates to anyone who's neurotypical as well, there may be things that they kind of struggle with or, or other factors, if you like.

16:20 So that, that very descriptive way of doing something I think is something I, I learned the hard way and to the detriment of the people that I supported as a business leader in the past,

16:31 which I wish I'd done differently on earlier in my career. Yeah, I can see that. And it's, it's ingenious. The idea, as you say, putting into a box, I mean,

16:44 ironically for many, many years, we talked about not putting people into boxes, but expecting people to work in a certain way. And you can see it's a challenge for organisations.

16:54 It's not to say this an easy thing, is it to make allowances for those that need it. But ultimately, if you want to be able to get the car to those people,

17:03 if you want to be able to have those people get the most out of them, then it's figuring out ways, isn't it? So actually to be able to make some of those allowances. I mean, I've worked in organisations where,

17:13 and sometimes I've had it with personally myself as well, but you'll see people ask for an allowance. It could be, look, I need to work from home once, once, uh, or there's something that unfortunately,

17:25 sometimes it can be seen as a negative as in, oh, you're just, you know, you're being lazy or, or you're just wanting to do that or like,

17:33 yeah. And that's that thing, isn't it? I've been careful as a leader. You don't frame everything the same,

17:40 you know, you don't frame everybody the same because actually just because typically this is what you would expect. Doesn't mean that necessarily because somebody has come along is understanding really what is, what is behind the request. What is,

17:55 what is the need for this rather than it being, oh, well, you know, it's, I mean, I've had it situations before where you go and ask for something and you might say, oh, I'd like to, you know,

18:04 I need to work four days a week rather than five, for example. And they go, oh, well, somebody else requested that as well. And we're, we're thinking about it, but actually,

18:11 cause they've requested it as well. We can't re this, this idea. We can't do it for you because you have to do it for everyone. Or there's, I think is,

18:18 it's something I get it. I know I get the sentiment with that, but the reality is it is any human neurotypical or neurodivergent want to feel like you are seen and known for who you are not decisions made because of what somebody else may or may not do or perceive. Yeah.

18:37 I think there's two sides to that coin. As you pointed out, there needs to be protection for the business. So is it in the business interest and can the business operate with that reasonable adjustment? If it can't,

18:51 then then the business has a right to say no to that, if you like. But most reasonable adjustments that I come across cost nothing. You know, they're very small adjustments.

19:04 I had one this morning with someone who was talking about with this, with a business owner who was talking kind of about someone turning up late. And you know, so rather than just saying to that person, stop being late,

19:17 just don't turn up late, you know, find out the reason why they're turning up late. Is there something in the way that they're you know they are you know getting up late or you know something in their routine or is there a reason that you you know can you change it so you change the time they start with that help them or you know with some companies it might be you start you actually set the start time earlier than it needs to be so the real time they turn up is a bit like you know there's lots of different ways of finding solutions but most of them cost a lot of money. So, you know, most of them cost,

19:51 not okay. It's about as you said that that that conversation with someone and you know and sometimes I guess as this is a technology podcast you know sometimes that involves you know AI does come into that as well and it's very useful from that point of view to help people to manage themselves not always but but often that can be the case. So let's explore that a bit further in terms of those pros and cons. When it comes to using technology like AI to support people in these environments talking about within whether it's the business leaders or or those that are neurodivergent. Yeah,

20:34 again, I mean, it's how long is a piece of string, especially in,

20:40 you know, if we take the emergence of some of the latest kind of LLM models, they really open up so many opportunities for, people and people and businesses to explore how to support people,

20:56 whether it is from managing simple diary management and creating draft responses, which they can then be checked by the human, you know, so feeding in tone of voice and understanding of what the business does and it evolves over time. So it becomes more realistic in how it supports that person to how it manages.

21:19 The task reminders and priorities. So I talked about importance led. This is often a an issue with people from a task management point of view. So how do you decipher what is important from a task so you can use various different matrices to understand, you know,

21:41 what is the easiest task to do that is going to give the best return for the business, which is going to be the cheapest option. And the simplest to implement and having the most, you know, going to turn the dial and then that technology can order those priorities in terms of what needs to be done first and can help someone to deal with that.

22:01 It could be in terms of again, people, I hear the phrase lost phones, lost, you know, he's a lot. So, you know, there's very obvious things that have been around for a while key tags or, you know, putting on an alert for your phone that you can use.

22:18 So there's ways that there's very simple things and there's a lot more complicated thing for someone like me. For instance, I have automated a lot of my processes behind what I do in terms of my admin so that I don't need to manage the process of updating the tactics after I do a coaching call. It puts it into a nice format for it. It gives me some tactics, you know,

22:44 suggestions of tactics that I can put in there to support the person I'm working with. It then links with my CRM system. It automates kind of the process of then booking in the next appointment with that person. So that for me is a game changer because I can focus now on the important thing of supporting my clients rather than spending half of my time doing admin tasks. Well, that's interesting.

23:08 Going back to what you said before in terms of importance led versus interest led. So the admin might be important, but if your interest is really, is really in the coaching in supporting your clients,

23:22 then that's what you're more motivated doing in terms of the, in terms of the maybe the admin that there is the important thing to do. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, for me to take it for my clients from a fractional perspective, from a, you know, strategy, a strategic point of view of helping them to run their businesses or from a neurodiversity point of view, working on them. Yeah,

23:48 I can give my full attention to that. Now there's a downside to that, which is I, I lost a week trying to build that process if you like in the first place. So, you know, my hyper focus went into,

24:03 I've got to get this right. I've got to get it perfect. And you get 95% the way through that process and then it fails. And then you got to go back again and all of that. And,

24:13 and you can actually lose a lot of your, you know, I lost almost a week's work kind of doing that, but now I've got it in place. The benefit across 12 months financially is probably,

24:26 probably the equivalent of anywhere between eight and 10,000 pounds worth of admin time. If you like that, that I can reinvest into, into my business time. Yeah. And that's it. And that's a really,

24:41 I've really liked the way you put that because sometimes we'll be, we'll talk about time savings with automation. And I, but the reality isn't a time saving because they're just spending their time doing something that maybe isn't any more productive than, than they were before.

24:57 So what you're talking about where you can actually put some monetary terms into it in terms of the savings saying, well, actually this is the reality I think is, is a very important thing when people look at it in terms of what I'm, what are they going to do with,

25:10 with their automation? Interestingly, as part of the last course, we were, we were on together, the operation, the AI course. I, I actually, I was working on my LinkedIn pipeline and I've had somebody recently say to me, oh,

25:28 I'd be interested in, in, in you actually using that myself. And I, now in the back of my mind, I sort of partially built it to be a product,

25:39 but when I then looked at it and I've gone, it needs actually quite a little bit of more work in terms of that. So I started looking into that. But again, I have to be careful that I don't,

25:48 I don't go down into the similar, like you were saying, into spending weeks bringing this into something that becomes a product. Yeah. Because, and then finding, well, actually that wasn't really worth it.

26:00 So I'm quite conscious of that at the moment because yes, it could be interesting product, but it could be quite hard to maintain. I've got a tech background,

26:08 so I know I've spent most of my life in, in terms of a career wise, supporting technology. So making sure it's something that's,

26:17 that is supportable and isn't going to just end up draining my time in terms of making something that's robust. But it's, it was great. I love that you mentioned that because I did have that thought in my head go, hold on a minute. Let's just keep asking that question. But is this a valuable use of time in terms of what you're going to end up potentially selling it for?

26:39 Is that actually going to be something that's going to be worthwhile? And also, you know, if LinkedIn, for example, make big changes, it could completely break the whole system. So, so it's one of those things that it's an important thing. However, from your example, it works out, but it's, it's, it's having that awareness, isn't it? That this, this business case, you always in this,

27:03 in the environment we're talking about from a business point of view, you have to work out the business case. Again, I think I know a lot of other business leaders. They start a lot of things on AI. They,

27:16 they get hyper focused on it and it's just a distraction. So I think in the workplace, you've got to have a business case for it. You've got to have railguards around it.

27:26 Railguards in terms of time is going to take. So is it, you know, in the example I gave, I worked out that if I were to do that again, I would rather get an AI automation specialist to do it because that's more cost effective for me.

27:39 And I understand my limitations more as an example, but I started a, an AI specialist, an AI specialist team, if you like in a marketing company, probably in 2022, I think because I could see that with the emerging technologies that the,

27:59 that marketing was going to be very badly affected by the advancement of AI. And so I wanted to make sure that we protected the jobs of that agency, for instance. So we set up a champion, a spearhead within the company,

28:15 who was going to look after that. We made sure that there was someone who, we made sure that everybody had time in their kind of CPD, their, their training development time to research the products out there to then define how that could save them time or to improve productivity and how they could use that to produce better outcomes. Whilst,

28:44 whilst protecting the integrity of the work that we did as a business. So not just use AI, but then to raise the standards for the clients that we were working for. And that then made these people for a world where jobs such as graphic design, for instance, is that though, if you're a graphic designer,

29:08 you're probably really concerned about the future. And I know, anecdotally, that is the case because AI can do lots of it. But what it means is those people, if they have the right skills and graphic design with AI skills is going to be better than Nick Silverstone trying to create graphics with AI. Okay. So,

29:30 so they then make themselves a very saleable asset in the future if they've got those skills on their head of the curve. But for businesses, you've then got to put that protection around that, around governments, in terms of AI policies, how you use it, what's best practice,

29:48 protecting what tools people are using, protecting the data in tech, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Very long winded, Shaun, sorry, I went off on a rant. No, no,

29:58 it's all very helpful. I'm sure people will find it very useful. And one of the interesting things I take out of what you said there is how do you know what is good, right? And then this is the point.

30:12 So I talk to people, people about, okay, you need to make sure that you, you know, the human is always the one that is going to prompt. The human is always the one that's asking,

30:21 making the request as they ask. And then you could be the human or it could be either just the creation, the execution of something. So it could be, well, I mean, you might look at something and go, you know what?

30:31 Actually I could get the graphic design to that today, but I feel like I could get out to do it. Sorry, but I feel like I've got 30 minutes today and I think I'd enjoy that. I feel like, I feel like that would be something, you know,

30:44 if you can justify doing that. So you might want to do that, you know, ensure you're using the cognitive ability. And then there's the evaluation. So actually saying,

30:54 looking at it and going, well, actually is the output. And this is the thing I think is, is we have to be careful on as well.

31:01 If I'm the one doing the asking and I, am I also the one, the human qualified to do the evaluation? Certainly we can't, we don't AI to do that. Cause you don't need to be able to do AI.

31:12 Your self is just going to say, this is great. I mean, it gets more complex than that. You can get it to evaluate, but I've always found,

31:18 even when it's self reviews, it still ends up finding, it still ends up missing something and, but there's that evaluation.

31:27 And that's what an interesting, what you were saying there was that as I'm not a graphic designer, so I could create something and I think, oh yeah, I think it looks brilliant. It looks great.

31:37 Graphic design looks and goes, yeah, but that's not quite right. That's not really composed properly. So I don't know what's good. I,

31:44 there was a time a number of years ago now was getting a house renovated. And so we're looking for a builder and a builder down the road had, had done a job. So we went to the, the couple there and said, how did it go? And they said, oh yeah, it was, you know, fine and said, and looked around and yeah, look, you know, look solid.

32:05 And then I was having a conversation with somebody else and they said, okay, so are you a builder? So I know. So how do you know, you know, that was a good job. Yeah. And actually in the end, the,

32:17 we did go with these builders and some of the things they did in the back, in the back behind the scenes kind of things were not as good as we would have hoped them to be. Cause all we were seeing was the, the finished front. And so I think that's something that's,

32:30 you've made a really valid point there that yes, you know, you are, you can ask AI to do things for you. And as you said, you know, we need guardrails. You need to make sure that you're,

32:40 you're protecting data, your data, and the data of your, of your, your clients, that you are aware you're giving constraints in terms of what you're asking. I used to do, but also that the output is something that you evaluate and you're qualified.

32:55 You're qualified to evaluate that, to know whether or not it's something that is, that is what it should be, which is like you're saying with the marketing. I mean, I can, you know,

33:06 I'm sure there's lots and lots of people using AI to do marketing. I've used it a lot to give me information and, and I was actually talking to, to, uh, my last guest in the previous podcast and she's, she does marketing. And actually I'm, I'm like, yeah,

33:23 how successful has it been? It's helped me, but it hasn't kind of got me where I need to get to because I need the expertise of somebody that really knows what they're looking for. And actually I can build a relationship with understands my business much better than we think that AI might do. Yeah. I think, again, that comes down to, so it kind of goes back to the name of the podcast, doesn't it? It's,

33:49 it's better with humans and it's better. And that's where someone with an expertise in their field, whether it's an accountant, whether it's, uh, you know, whatever it might be, um,

34:00 as anyone who has that expertise. And again, I was talking, one of my clients this morning is, uh, is a construction business. And he has automated tools on his website for, for quoting,

34:13 giving sort of kind of some, some, some standard kind of pricing for building extensions and, you know, things like that. But he has the tools. He understands the square footage.

34:26 He understands the materials. He's built a product where it will adjust because we're in a time where the cost of building and the cost of materials are changing all the time. So he's got the mechanisms in there. And the safeguards within this tool that he can adjust the AI,

34:43 that it will give the right output, if you like, for this calculator on his website. So I think you do, we, and we all know that the LLMs hallucinate. We all know that they will say what they think you want to know.

34:57 And then when you go back and you say, yeah, but what's the sort of that source of that? What is, you know, is that actually true? Oh, well, you know, not sure. We can't rely on what it says and we can't rely on that output.

35:11 If we go back to the marketing example, I think when you've got things that are disposable, such as LinkedIn posts, where you just want an image to articulate kind of graphically what you're talking about. I think AI has a, you know, there's,

35:28 there's a room for it. Think at the higher end. If you're a premium brand, you can spot AI graphics, you know, really easily.

35:37 And I think it's to the detriment of those brands when they use it. So I think it's getting that balance, if you like. Right. And that's not to say that that graphic designer wouldn't have used elements of AI to create it, but they are still using their skills to, to,

35:55 to do the, that creative bit, if you like, of it. And what I think it does is it pushes people into more senior roles so they can be more strategic. They can do, they're creative thinking. And we, the lower end kind of jobs,

36:10 we can then use AI to, to just, as with the example that I gave about myself, just to do that kind of grunt work, if you like. Of course, that then brings another problem, doesn't it, Shaun?

36:19 Because then what we're finding in a lot of industries is all of those entry level jobs that people had, are now longer not available. And that's, that's, that's stuff that's not available. And that is causing an ability for people to get into different industries.

36:42 So I would throw that back to you. How do you think we deal with that? Well, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? That there's always different cycles we're seeing. And so we are,

36:53 so we've seen some of this lower end jobs, but we're also now starting to see a bit of a shift in exactly that point, which, which organisations and large organisations are starting to understand as well, that we still need the human capability,

37:06 So if we don't continue to train people up, then eventually we'll run out of be like the Thatchers, right? You know, there's, there's very few Thatchers in the world anymore, but there are still some there, but it's very costly.

37:21 So because there's not many that do it. And so I think, and so there is starting to see that understanding of, it actually is important that we still upskill. That even, even as, and you mentioned it, there's two parts, isn't it?

37:34 There's the junior level and say, yeah, you still need to train these people up. You still need to be able to help people to follow their interests. They should be able to develop in a way to understand how can they use

37:46 technologies like ARs and augmentation to help inspire and grow them. So we use it as growth, not as something that does the cognitive thinking for us. Like you said, you use it for the, the admin tasks,

38:00 the tasks that need doing, but they don't really grow anybody to allow, people to then do what's important or do what is interesting to them, depending upon, you know,

38:09 depending on where they're, where they're drawn to. So we are seeing that we're starting to see a shift in that conversation to understand you can't just, you can't rely on it. We're all going to age out eventually.

38:21 And so it's, it's, you know, they're going to, you're going to find that the people that have the expertise get more and more and more and more expensive. And then nobody is coming in and we can't rely on AI to,

38:34 to, to train people, right? You can't, we can't rely on AI has a certain expertise and eventually you're, you're, well, we're seeing it already so that the learning information that AI is getting is now being,

38:49 so AI generated content is being used is the AI is learning from its own, you know, from content, but that own content it created was created from its original learning data. So we're not seeing anything new.

39:02 And that's, I think side of previous guests as well, to say that the AI can't actually really create you anything original. Exactly.

39:10 And relying on the data that's using being accurate. So we all know that, that the content that is available online is, can often be quite misogynistic. It can be racist.

39:26 You know, it can be prejudiced, you know, there's no unconscious bias with,

39:31 with the way it deals with stuff. So that reliance on, on a lot of data out there, we need to be really careful about,

39:39 but going back to your point again, I think there have been so many tech revolutions, if you like. So again,

39:47 if we use an example of a, of an architect, they would have had a big sort of manual drawing board. They would have handwritten, you know,

39:54 and hand drawn all of the graphics onto that. And then AutoCAD would have come along and people probably, you know, the older architects would have kind of, Oh,

40:03 you can't do it like that. You know, you've got to use this kind of manual process. And then, you know,

40:09 we're now superseding AutoCAD with that kind of automation of, you just kind of use prompts instead to describe what you want and kind of build it. And it's just an evolution. I think with any,

40:22 any change in technology, any change in kind of working environment, there is a readjustment and we are in that readjustment period where unfortunately there are losers.

40:32 And I think once we learn to, you know, how, how to embrace the development and the training of, of people coming into the workplace so that they can then use technology effectively, if that's what they need to do for their job,

40:49 then we're going to be in a much better place. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's what's key for me in terms of on the business side of it,

40:56 of Tech That Cares is it's about AI capability, right? It's about helping organisations to be capable. You made a, raised a really good point that,

41:04 where you said the example you gave for the marketing agency, that making sure that everybody is up to a certain level in terms of their AI understanding and ability, because what we're seeing as part of that revolution is, is the devolving of technological development outside of just the IT organisation departments.

41:25 And I say that as an IT person myself, right? We used to, you know, we were always the protectors of everything, right? And the IT departments still are,

41:34 but there's a devolution that's happening that's saying, well, actually we can have development of things that are for the organisation outside of, outside of the, the IT environment. The IT environment can still be supporting the governance, can still be supporting tooling,

41:51 can still be supporting the guardrails and all those aspects as well. But we can actually see instead of there being somebody in the middle that has to go, right, what is it you need?

42:01 Let me understand your requirements. Let me go away and then take, take that to the IT development team and let me then understand from them. Then come back to you with,

42:09 we can say, well, actually you can figure a lot of this stuff out for yourself. You can experiment. You can, you can build a prototype of something or an idea that then you can go to the IT department and, and I've got this, I've, I've kind of shown how it's working. This is the,

42:28 what it would help within our department. And yeah, how can we progress with that further? So, right,

42:34 so the actual capability within the organisations for development is, is massive. And, but it's, it's that, it's that focus on,

42:45 you don't want to replace your people. We've seen it. I mean, the thing about, you said about technological, the speed of, of change, right?

42:53 Yeah. We're seeing this speed of change, this technological change, and it's happening faster than we've ever experienced before.

42:59 But we're also seeing the reaction time. And in terms of our adaption having to happen, it happened a lot faster as well. So we've seen already,

43:11 yeah. Organisations get rid of people and it's been, you know, AI has been a focus on that, but the actually statistically,

43:18 it looks like it's been more like just actually where there's been over recruitment over this over around COVID time. And this is a reset, but also what we're seeing is those organisations that early on were pushing AI and getting rid of people. People have gone, have gone back to recruit those similar people again,

43:37 because they're like, oh, actually we still need those skillsets exactly as we talked about. We, yeah. AI doesn't know what is good.

43:46 What we're getting out of AI is not quite good enough because we need somebody to, we need a human to do the evaluation of it. And I can foresee, I think it was quite exciting for, you know,

43:59 you said it similarly, really for small businesses, there's an excitement. I mean, you can do more, but to do more,

44:06 make sure you still get the people in that can tell you, 0: tell you what is good. I mean, for programming, 1: imagine historic divide it. 2: If I wanted to get something developed,

44:17 3: I got a few years ago. Well, you know, yeah. Well, 4: I say a few years ago, it's like pre, 5: you know, 6: generative AI,

44:24 7: pre 2022. 8: If I was going to get an app developed, 9: it might cost me like up at a 15,000 pounds, right. To, 10: to get a mobile app app. Now,

44:32 11: I could do that now with AI, 12: but I wouldn't know what is good, 13: but even if, if, 14: even if it costs me 5,000 pounds to pay somebody to,

44:41 15: you know, 16: to pay somebody to help me get that, 17: I could get an amazing app for sort of seven, 18: you know,

44:47 19: sort of a two thirds of the price that it would have cost me before. 20: So it's not even more, 21: even less so probably. Right. 22: Yeah.

44:55 23: But the, but the point, yeah, but the, but yeah, I mean, 24: it's just that point of there's, 25: we should still invest in the, in, in getting the, 26: the best out and invest in the people in the people. That's the,

45:06 27: that's the real, the real thing. 28: I think there's, I mean, 29: there's a phrase that I use when I do talks a lot. 30: I think it was a Jeff Bezos thing that he said about 15, 18 years ago,

45:18 31: which is don't ask yourself what's going to change in the next year, 10 years, 32: ask yourself what isn't going to change in the next 10 years. 33: Now, for me, 34: I would take that to a year.

45:28 35: You know, 36: it's not, 37: what's not going to, 38: what is going to change in the next year is what's not going to change.

45:32 39: And that's the mindset change that businesses need. 40: They need to be adaptive. 41: They need to be agile in the way they look at how they do businesses and 42: how they could do it differently, better.

45:44 43: What I see the reality is within the businesses that I come across. 44: And I work with is again, 45: going back to the kind of neurodiversity conversation. 46: There is a paralysis around AI of how to to implement it. One through fear,

46:03 47: which I think is doing a disservice to the people in the business because 48: they're not investing in the people early enough within the business. 49: And it is overwhelmed of not understanding how to use the technology. 50: So for me, again,

46:18 51: it goes back to the understanding the business case. 52: How can you use this? 53: How can we effectively train people and get people on board? I think, you know, 54: having champions on board, having people,

46:32 55: people, 56: you don't need to want to believe in using it, 57: if you like the technology and how it's going to better them. 58: And then you've got the other side of it,

46:43 59: which reminds me of one of my family members who is completely anti AI. She, she, you know, 60: the cost of what it's doing to, 61: from an environmental point of view, what it's doing, 62: you know,

46:55 63: how destructive it is from that point of view, 64: both for humans and for physical, environment. 65: And I can't have a proper conversation with them about how that's going to affect their career, for instance, 66: because they are very, very sure on their, their view on it.

47:15 67: So we do have to change hearts and minds within businesses. 68: And, 69: and I guess that's where podcasts like this come in, 70: Shaun,

47:23 71: because you are doing it from the point of view of the people, 72: not the technology. 73: So how can we embrace it? 74: As humans effectively.

47:33 And I think that's why it's a very important message that you're kind of delivering. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nick. And I think that's, that seems like a perfect, a perfect place to, to end the conversation.

47:44 I'm sure we could have carried on so much more. There is so much, as you say, nuance in these things, but I think bringing your perspective from the neurodivergent side of things and your,

47:56 your, your experience and what you're seeing in, in the real world, what you're seeing,

48:01 face to face in front of organisations is, has been such a, such a blessing to hear that from you. So we thank you so much. And how do people get going to get in contact with you? If they want to,

48:12 they want to find out more, they want to talk to you more about how you can support them in their organisation. How, how do they get in touch? Through LinkedIn,

48:19 just Nick hyphen Silverstone, you know, in terms of LinkedIn, our website,

48:24 which is fractional MD.com. Sorry, fractional MD hyphen MD.com. Yes.

48:30 And they can buy my book. So I've got a book called revealing the invisible me as well on, which is on Amazon, which is really about those kind of understanding and all the lessons I wish I'd learned previously from,

48:48 you know, the task paralysis, the overwhelm, all of those kinds of things and the kind of red flags and how to,

48:56 to work smarter, think calmer and achieve more. Amazing. Thanks so much. Yeah. The link to your,

49:03 to your website and LinkedIn will also be in the show notes. So if anybody just can go into checking the show notes, wherever you're safe, you look, you're watching on YouTube or your favourite podcast channel, please like, and subscribe.

49:14 If you've enjoyed this, please comment. And I'd love to hear from people. If there's particular topics that you want us to uncover and challenge in terms of what does it look like to,

49:25 to be better with humans. And yeah, once again, thank you so much, Nick. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for having me on show.