0:04 I think it's something that is intrinsic and we can use AI to help us, but also it can hinder us. Creativity is more than that. Creativity is the magic of nothing exists and then something does. Brand is about helping people to understand what makes you special. Use AI to build version one of what you're thinking. If that's your...

0:26 Creativity is the magic of nothing existing and then something does. That's how my guest today put it. Not something together from what already exists, but making something that's never been seen before. It's why AI generated work so often feels right, but not quite right. Something niggles. You can't always say what.

0:46 Today's conversation gets into whether AI can actually be creative. By chasing the same tool as everyone else means blending into an average nobody wants. And why good branding was never about beating your competition. It's about being different from them. If you're...

1:01 Never wondered whether you're outsourcing your thinking, not just your workload, stick around. If you enjoy the conversation, then please subscribe. We're on YouTube and all the major podcast platforms. Let's uncover what is better with humans. In this episode, I'm joined by Adam Jennings. Adam and I worked together previously around 10 years ago. Adam then went on to set up

1:23 Contour, a studio that builds brands and the systems underneath them for founded businesses on the way up. He partners with founders directly, sometimes for years, working on their own business. He's also a founder of a company called Contour. He's also a founder of a company called Contour. He's also a founder of a company called Contour.

1:32 I'm working with businesses that have outgrown their brand and working with them to launch the one that finally fits. And I love sports, the outdoors, and chatting about brand growth. Adam, great to have you here today. Thank you very much for having me. It's really lovely to join you. It's nice to catch up

1:48 after... I didn't realise it was 10 years, but it's been a while. It's been really lovely to sort of catch up again. Yeah, definitely. And actually, when I was reading the bio back, I was like, oh yeah, bikes, right? You say sports, but I remember bikes was always like a...

2:02 Yeah, definitely. And actually when I was reading the bio back, I was like, oh yeah, oh it's still a big deal I'm still out on bikes all the time I'm doing triathlons and competing in mountain bike races nothing has changed to be fair nothing has changed from me being about eight years old I still colour in for a living and I ride bikes I'm still the same kid it's good

2:18 I love it well that's really uh really great to hear and interesting you talk about colouring in I think as we think about AI in terms of this is part of the the worries people have isn't it will I will I still will I still get to colour in I remember this is just come to mind now I think it must have been at college or maybe I'd gone to an open day or something this was back when

2:42 the computers weren't great but I remember there was this I've I was never really that great at drawing or art personally I remember the first time that I saw a graphic program where I could draw a square or a circle and I could put colours in it and for me that actually was like great I can I can do something that I couldn't do that I couldn't

3:04 actually do before I mean since then I've I have done a little bit of uh again this book how to draw in 30 days this was more this was over a year ago and I'm still I'm a bit better than I was but you've got to put the time in but when we when it comes to that what are you seeing in terms of your use in of AI in creativity I'm gonna I'm gonna maybe open with a contentious statement I don't I don't

3:29 don't know if AI is intrinsically creative but I think that AI is a tool as part of a tool stack to allow you to be creative is is not going anywhere and I think that's that's what the future is and I think it depends on where you sit in the conversation but for me and the work that I do AI is is is very much a piece that allows me to either pull ideas or like gather thinking into

3:57 something that allows me to move move decisions forward but as soon as I try and trade it as a creative output tool it's still not there and that's not me saying it won't be but I think that we've got to remember and all the fear-mongering and excitement around AI it's only as good as what you're putting into it it's going to give you great answers if you give great prompts it's

4:18 going to get things wrong because it's proven that it can do that but creativity is intrinsically human the fact that you are creating something out of nothing whereas AI is creating something out of nothing it's going to give you great answers if you give great answers if you're creating something out of data that has gathered and pulled and pulled into a

4:32 place from something that already exists and and at its core creativity is going I'm going to put this paint on this paper and make something that no one's ever seen before and um I'm not anti AI but I I know that it can't create without learning it can't create without having something to build from and creativity is more than that creativity is the magic of

4:57 nothing exists and then something does rather than going I'm going to pull these things and copy it um in a in a hands-off robotic sense it just doesn't feel the same yeah I love that I think I'm going to grab that soundbite and use that let's say you know the magic of creativity is that we you know something didn't exist and then it exists and that's a really important point

5:17 that there are some concerns about the about creativity being lost but of course really it's a choice I mean if we if we actually use it we're going to be able to create something that's going to use as you say use AI for inspiration we can create things but if we only use AI to create things eventually we'll kind of run out original things to create because we're not bringing in the

5:38 creativity gravity right we we have to you know you you use AI enough to get to create things for you you will start to see I mean we see it anyway we already see a lot of people that use AI will be able to tell an AI generated image they've got better and better but there there is something something that isn't quite right and we're not going to be able to tell an AI generated image

5:57 right about it and I remember this um I think about saying this previous episode but I'm going to say anyway because it's come to mind there's this book by called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell and in his books he tells this story about there was this a um in Greek architecture and and he actually there was a statue they had to come and authenticate so so him and another

6:22 another expert went along to authenticate this statue and they and they were he was like i'm i know something's wrong but he couldn't tell what and he did all the tests and it came back as you know it's yeah it's real it's genuine a few years later some new tests came out went and checked and then they checked it and it was and it was it was fake i think that's something that

6:44 we always have to remember when we were creating something that we need to be open about how we created it what did we use to create it and and if we have used ai as an example just be aware that there might be something that's wrong with it and i think that's something that we need to be careful about because there might be things in there that somebody that it might look great and

7:00 perfect but actually as humans there's a little niggle there's something that says you know what it's not not quite right agreed no i i think it depends on how you're using it and where you're using it now for everyone so my my world is brand and brand growth if everyone on the planet built their business with the same brand consultant there would be overlaps and myriad assets that

7:24 would be be delivered across every business that you worked with the quicker the planet adopts for argument's sake chatgpt or claude as their creative partner the quicker everyone blends into this average of what creativity looks like within these platforms and most people want a brand because they want to do

7:45 something fantastic or great stand out and unfortunately if you're using the same consultant for every project ever or the same tool for every project ever you're going to start to blend into this average of all brands and that feels like a really it feels like a missed opportunity because going back to our

8:03 conversation about creativity it's there to pull something out of us that we want to say or communicate or or portray and design is functional design should be there to tell a story or to communicate something that you should or shouldn't do an interaction and currently ai doesn't deliver that it feels transactional

8:27 it doesn't feel like it's built on relationships and the reason that it's so easy to identify when ai is being used is because it feels transactional you don't feel like there is any rapport you don't feel like the graphic style is talking to you because it's talking to everyone um we've all gone down high streets and seen flyers children's invitations like everything created with ai and

8:49 you could swap your name or your logo for your competitors and you'd look the same and the magic of creativity is that we're not all the same we're all different like shaun you and i could have an identical business and we would still bring it to life differently even if the service offering was the same because we are different people with different experiences and different clients

9:09 ai doesn't understand that nuance it just goes you're doing this business and you're doing this business here's the generic solution to that problem whereas brand magic creativity like all of it is about going well what makes shaun special and what makes adam special and why do we tell that why does adam talk to this audience why does shaun talk to that audience it's not about right or

9:31 wrong it's about understanding the nuance between people and then nurturing that relationship into something that you can communicate that's where the magic is and it's really easy to forget that because a new tool meant you could launch your brand in a minute but if we're so to to my business and where i'm i'm at if everyone can build a brand right now we need better brands like more

9:54 brands doesn't mean anything because everyone can launch a business on a friday afternoon but if you're doing something meaningful when you build a better brand that has purpose has value communicates your story that's when you're going to pull your audience in that's where you're going to excite people and that's where the magic comes from and it's not that i couldn't do that but

10:11 unless you have that creative ability to harness a tool you're going to struggle to come to that conclusion without without like the creative mind fed into into whatever ai you're using you yeah yeah there's lots of lots of great stuff that you've you've mentioned there and this whole piece about you don't want to be doing ai thinking for you i i there's plenty of sort of acronyms and

10:38 things people use but i i i took it in terms of ace you know i say that actually we need to be the ones asking ai so we're the ones conceptualising and saying well this is this is the requirement that the need this is the context required then either the human or the ai can do some of that create that creation piece the execution piece and then we we need to really evaluate it

10:59 and that evaluation is where we go you know it's not quite right maybe we need to revise that or maybe we take it take it out of ai and we say okay that's enough for me now to work on the next step and i really i really love and it's really kind of it's almost like counter kind of business culture in terms of what you said about actually if you work with the same person

11:23 for you know you're a person you're a vou competitor you're a marketer you're a businessman you're a engineer you're a how-to planner and singer you're also a person you're a business culture gernek for, you know, you keep working with it, you don't actually get those other things fed in. I think that's a

11:27 really interesting thing. And I'm like, wow, what a thing to say, right? In terms of like going, but it's true. And yet we're in business, there's this, then, well, yeah, you want

11:37 to retain people. We want to retain people. You want to get ongoing business, but also you want to see the best result. And with what you're suggesting,

11:45 that's when you're going to get the best results, saying, well, this person has got me so far, and maybe I just need a different thing. The thing about how do I,

11:56 as you said, that thing of how do I make it special? How do I make other people help other people to see what makes me special?

12:03 What makes my business special? And I love that, that idea that actually brand is about helping people to understand what makes you special,

12:11 what is different about you. And not just special, but again, it's that principle of often again, people will go, oh, right, I want to just, my brand

12:19 be amazing. Everybody's going to want to work with me. You know, well, you want your brand to speak to your target. You want your brand to say,

12:27 this is why I'm special for you. And when somebody's watching your videos or looking at your website and going, wow, it feels like this company

12:35 was like, this is the Nirvana, right? This company was made for me. These guys are speaking my language. And yet so often we,

12:43 and this is the danger, I think, with whether it's AI or other technologies, there's this danger of we don't, it almost makes it easier for us to, to avoid that

12:54 narrowing down, that kind of niching into a space of saying, I need to determine what makes me special and I need to determine who's going to want, what has

13:03 the need that my special fit provides. The phrase I always return to in this topic is good branding is not there to beat your competition. It's there to differentiate

13:15 you from them. It's the fact that you are the right solution for this audience who you are focused on. It's not about going,

13:23 well, like, again, if I said you and me both run creative studios, it wouldn't be about going, oh, well, I'm better than Shaun. It would

13:31 be a case of this is why I'm different. Shaun's great and does his thing. Adam's great and does this thing. This is why you should work with me. It's not about trying to one-up someone. It's about

13:39 trying to go, well, I'm going to tell my story. It will speak to a different audience than yours would. And it's not right or wrong. It's not black and white. There's

13:47 all this wonderful space in the middle for overlap. But we're in a, we're in a space where everyone can launch a business or a product or a brand.

13:57 Anyone can create this idea of a side hustle or the retirement business or a product service-led business that they want to run at the weekend, whatever it might be.

14:07 And it's, because it's so easy to do, it's so important to get it right. And if you're going to jump into the same pool

14:15 of resources, i.e. an AI system, you're going to get a really similar output to everyone else. And ultimately, no one launches a business to be average.

14:24 They launch it to be unique and interesting, incredible. And to the point of AI and something I've spoken about quite a lot,

14:36 sounds like I'm really anti-AI with this statement, but it gets stuff wrong. So are you willing to put all of your eggs in the basket of AI saying you should

14:44 look like this, you should make this choice, you should do that? And the humanity concern that I have, with AI, is that creativity is a muscle. There are people that are

14:57 exceptional at drawing. The vast majority of those people are exceptional because they've trained their whole life in nurturing the skill between their hand and the pencil

15:05 and then that pencil to the paper. I could pick up a pen and pencil and draw something fine, but it wouldn't be great. But I would argue that I probably practise

15:14 that skill a bit more than the general majority. Using AI isn't, it's not that it's good or bad, but if we don't nurture our own creativity, if we don't

15:24 practise the skills that make us critical thinkers, if we don't learn how that translates from our heads into screen, paper, product, relationships, whatever,

15:33 I do worry that we are going to skip into this magnolia beige reality where everything is fine rather than beautiful, exceptional, incredible.

15:44 And the joy of this, I've always been into design more than art, but art captures it perfectly. It's there to be formed and created and honed over time.

15:56 And I think that the introduction of AI into creative industries is pushing us all to enjoy that magic, the finesse, the care that goes into real creativity. AI has got

16:11 its place. I'm not sitting here hating on it. It's a wonderful part of the process, but there is this new magic space where people are really excited by relationships and human, human-to-human relationships.

16:22 And, and, and AI as a tool serves a purpose, but I'm still lost on it being the solution to a creative output. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, it's so key.

16:35 I mean, you mentioned about how with AI it gets it wrong. And there's a number of misconceptions in terms of what is actually for people what's going on there. I mean, I find myself, I know why I have a good idea how it's working,

16:48 but I still get frustrated when it gets it wrong. And I remind myself, hold on, AI is, is, it's, it's, it's machine intelligence. And, and actually it doesn't even understand the words that I give it.

16:59 It doesn't even know what they mean. It turns those into code. It reads the code. Then it actually predicts what it thinks,

17:07 what the code is that then to represent the words back to me again. And so it's going to get it wrong because it's actually trying to produce what it believes to be the best, best statistically best result for me. And then now it's, it's, it's unlikely to ever be a hundred percent.

17:25 If it's 85% is the best answer. It's can give me, it's going to give me 85%. And so that that's, and that's the thing that we, I think a lot of people don't realise about AI is, well, it's, it's almost fundamentally going to give you it wrong

17:41 because, and depending upon how it's set would depend on how, how much randomness it's going to bring. And so you might want randomness. You might like go, yeah, I want it to be super random because I want it to inspire me.

17:51 And help me to do something. And what the other point you made, which is really interesting. And it's been a bit of a theme so far, really is the cognitive, the creative aspect of saying, well, actually there is an opportunity, not just the need.

18:05 Some people will say, you don't do this. You're going to fall behind. There's also an opportunity really, in terms of developing your skills to be able to utilise AI in, in, in, in a constructive way.

18:17 So for example, I'm using at the moment for coding. Now. I've done. Some coding. I've never been a programmer, but I know enough to be able to work with AI to help me code, create code. And the great thing is I can create the code to build me tools and I can use those

18:33 tools, but I have to then go back and use AI for those tools. So there's this one side of it. People will say, yeah, just use all these. We've got AI and everything.

18:42 Now with it, you know, the software can Canva or not, not, not this in Canva, but this, this, all these different things that I've got, okay, that I've got. Generative AI in them previously. They still had AI because that's how they did background removals and things like

18:56 that, but it's just interesting to see that there's this push to have AI in everything, but actually we don't necessarily want AI in everything. We want the opportunity to be able to go. How do I use AI to get me to the next point or not at all?

19:13 So this is the thing. It might be, there's something I want to do and I could use AI and I go, but I'm actually, I quite like doing it. I quite like, you know, I find, oh yeah, quite like, you know, and maybe, you know,

19:26 some people might argue and go, yeah, is that good use your time? Well, if it's something you enjoy doing and it's asking the aid in your cognitive development, which is, which is not just important in terms of using a technology, but actually as we grow older, there's obviously things risks to our cognitive development.

19:43 So the more we can keep ourselves sharp. I mean, my mum, she passed the end of December 24. And right up to that point, she was doing Sudoku and puzzles. She was determined, you know, she was like, I'm going to keep my marbles, right?

19:57 I may not be, I may not be a PC term to say, I don't know, say, keep your marbles. But that was her term. She would say, yeah, I want to keep my marbles. I want to be sharp. I, you know, her greatest fear was losing that cognitive.

20:09 I am concerned about it. And I think it's a really important one. If you hand off your thinking, like, what is our purpose as that sounds like a really grand gesture. But if you're not going to do the thinking, like, what's the point?

20:23 Like, I'm driven by purpose. I love the work I do because I'm really passionate about the clients that I work with and the outputs that I create and the knock-on effect that that can have. But if you don't have purpose in your life, like, kind of, what's the point?

20:38 And for me, thinking and coming up with new ideas and creating, like, I literally get to invent future brands that have never existed before. I get to work with founders that have ideas that I couldn't possibly have imagined. And help them figure out what they're doing and tell their story and navigate.

20:57 What's what's next and I like I still sketch when I'm doing visual identity work. I'm still sketching admittedly. I use an iPad with Procreate and a graphics pen, but I'm still there drawing and I could go into Pinterest or AI tools and go give me 20 different options for this concept and

21:19 this idea, but that's not where the magic is. And that's not what makes me better at my my craft because I'm the one going through the strategy work to understand the thing that makes them special and what that means for their audience. And then I come out with a these are the things that we need to talk to visually.

21:34 And this is the tone of the project. And this is how this all needs to come together. And if I skip that step and instantly hand it off to AI, the next time that comes around, how do I have the skill set to know what is the right thing for my client?

21:48 Because I've handed off that decision-making process. And I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but I've I feel deeply connected to understanding that process from end to end and curating it. And I think that if you skip that step and you start to rely on AI to output all of those

22:08 decisions, I worry for where that would take me as an individual because I would not be having my creative needs met and we've all got different needs. One of mine is to be creative and fix things and solve problems. If I wasn't being a designer, I'd be fixing motorbikes or building cars or like something where I'm hands-on.

22:28 So it doesn't matter whether AI exists in my world. I would I have the need to be involved in that creative process in that problem-solving. And like I say right now, I still sketch I've got like post-it notes and I project calls this morning. I've literally got sketches in notebooks on my desk.

22:44 I'm just playing around with when I'm like, oh that might be an interesting idea or that could play into this thing. And if I if I handed that over. I just think it would my work would lose not necessarily credibility but authenticity because I would be churning for the sake of it.

23:03 And that's not what what I think people are drawn to and we were saying earlier about how people can read when something is created by AI or not. I don't have AI in my creative like process of coming up with ideas. It's very much synthesising data and

23:21 I think it shows and I'm really proud of that and I I'm not here to throw shade at the studios that are using AI from every part of their their process, but it features in mind rather than is the process and I'm I think I think that's a really interesting space to sit in. I'm really proud of that.

23:38 And I also think with things currently shifting where there's a lot of AI backlash is serving me quite well. So I kind of feel like right now at least I'm going to continue in this vein. Yeah, that's great. I think it's so interesting that in terms of when you talk about the creativity piece as well that not only is

23:59 as you say it's important for us to be able to be part of that creative piece and ideally we should be predominantly this we were using it to and I found I've used hours and hours and hours over the last few years of AI and I've used it sometimes for inspiration but and I don't I don't have any basis other than my impersonal kind of experience.

24:21 But I'm always more inspired when I hear other people speak or their ideas and that's just been my experience of going. Yeah, I might discover some things and I on. Oh, yeah, maybe. Okay, I'll have a think about that. But just yet just on Friday, I was in a training event and somebody was talking.

24:39 I was like, oh, I was right. That's a really interesting on his. Look at that. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know even even if maybe it's partly the Bible wired, but actually working with other people. Is something that actually generates more creativity.

24:55 And as you say, if we can, if we can use AI to get help us get a job done great. But as long as we're not taking away the creative piece and you got an example of that is I've got this LED panel. And that kind of says better with humans, but I can change it to. Yeah, be tech that cares.

25:16 And so I can I can now that that was a project because I had a neon sign there. For and I saw I was at an event and I had this massive LED display and thought, oh, maybe I could make a small one. So this became a project where I help where I used AI to help me spec it out. Tell me for the code and I physically built it and then.

25:40 You know, the actual graphics that were being created weren't very good and the tools I could find online for converting PNG. So it's like a so these day I to create a tool to help me create composite images. So that I could create use the logo and as in text. I don't know what example I've not programmed it in here, but I can also also changes the the colours of the lights and the in the shelf above because those are all linked together.

26:05 But it it's it's it's how I can be creative because I could have built it and I could have built it without AI previously. But actually I probably ended up with maybe a better result because that I could use something that kind of empowers, you know, like it's a an extra. All for me to use rather than it being something that is saying like give me everything and people said to me. I how did you do that?

26:29 And now I have something that I could package to people and say here you go. Here's something that you can do because I you I've got a you know, whole interface web interface. I can use to update it. But it's that. I love that output of being creative.

26:44 There's a the charity shop is Makano set twice. I looked at the charity shop is Makano. So it was there again. I have to buy it. It's just.

26:50 Sometimes I just feel like I just want to build something or something in Lego or build it in Makano or or just do some an electronic project. I used to love doing electronics. So so building getting my soldering iron out and putting something together fixing something. I think it's something that is intrinsic and we can use AI to help us but also it can hinder us as we said earlier when it gets it wrong.

27:14 It has got it wrong. It's take me down a rabbit hole and then I and so sometimes I have got caught out. I've gone. Back and I've gone. Let me just not talk to a let me just think about this enough solve the problem and I felt a bit stupid because I'm like I spent all these hours down a rabbit hole when actually I really had the answer. So I think that's also an important aspect is that we need to be exercising that muscle of do I already know do I already have the answer to it because there's a danger of yeah, we want to be creative.

27:47 We wanted to create things but we're farming off. Too much of our that initial on a thought process into AI because it's being made convenient for us. We can just press a button and and and so open an app and just talk to it and we and we get adults always. We've already said it's not a trusted source.

28:06 It's not a trusted source of creativity. It's not something that is you said what if how can I how can I work with somebody if I'm selling them an AI tool and I'm saying right end-to-end. You can subscribe to my tool and do this for you. Okay, fine. But if I'm sending if I'm offering them a service that involves that then is has multiple aspects to it and partly that is there's an expectation as a human in the loop.

28:36 There's a human doing some parts of this then they're going to want to fill that at the end of it. They're not going to feel like this is kind of cold output that is doesn't doesn't feel quite right and and actually brings me on to what's what be quite interesting. When? We we talked about. But I are getting it wrong. We've also talked about of you said about you want to be able to deliver, you know, what your client wants.

29:00 And one of the things that was was curious about in terms of how does somebody know that they need support with their brand? Now, how do you know when your brand is is not working? I mean, it might sound obvious to some people, but I think we'd love to hear your perspective of how would how would you kind of recognise that? Maybe there's work to be done.

29:19 I think it's always obvious to someone else before it's obvious to you as in I think that I think it's easier to see when there's a disconnect from an external perspective. Sometimes we're if you're a founder as an example, we're too close to our own brands and and often there's a personal element where we're attached to a decision that we made early on in the business whether that's identity and visuals or systems and processes or function service. Whatever and sometimes it's easier to know when you're sort of at odds with your clients or reality and I don't mean that is a complaint or a problem. But you might find that your business is taking down a route that you're not enjoying.

30:06 It might be that you are solving problems for people, but you don't you're not inspired by the output and typically the at some point in business any founder will meet a crossroads where they're like, do I go down the road? This route or this route and sometimes you make a business decision that moves you forward but to take that step. You have to leave an old identity behind and it might be that you're scaling and you're growing a team. So your old brand ignore.

30:33 So separate brand from visual identity for a second your your brand might not be doing the work that you needed to to move you forward to grow this team to build that business. The problem is most founders want to stay as they are because all of the work that they've done up until now. Has got them to this point, but to get over the next hurdle, they need to make a change. Something needs to shift in their business.

30:57 And sometimes it's brand. Now, if you're unwilling to let go of the brand that got you here because you go of I've done all of this stuff. You're not gonna be able to step into that new brand that new identity that new persona is an organisation because you're sitting there holding on to something that has sort of run its course and is keeping you stuck. And that might be struggling with business decisions. That might be.

31:19 Going into meetings with investors or board members and you're not proud of your deck or having the website talking about you in the way that you know that you can deliver your product or services and you'll start to find yourself second-guessing and questioning and wondering why things are a certain way. What could be done differently? What could happen? And I think that once you start to reach a point where you're not sure you're in the right place and it could be holding you back. If you're then able to project the potential, that's where the magic comes for someone to go.

31:54 I could be like this. This could happen. We could be this business. That's where brands an important conversation. And that's where you either involve your team or external support or agency studios, whatever to guide you on that journey because typically it's harder to do your own stuff.

32:10 And I say this person is someone that works in branding. I have people that come in and help me with copy comes positioning where my business has changed. Over the years and it would be easy to go. I'm going to do this.

32:23 But how do you know that's the right decision? How do you know it's the right choice? And ultimately that's the point at which you go. I'm feeling stuck. I need to talk to people and then that's when you get it reflected back to you that maybe this needs to change and maybe this is holding you back.

32:38 But it starts with questioning in its simplest form. You start to question why this looks this way. Why haven't we done this? What?

32:49 And if you're able to then translate that into what is this stopping me doing? That's when you start to be able to justify an investment in your brand because if your brand is holding you back and you're in a room with people spending 50,000 pounds on your product and you're sitting there going, I don't think my brand is up to scratch. Well, how many projects and how many clients and how many opportunities could you secure by getting your branding right? And that's where you're able to start monetising the cost of your brand and where it's holding you from.

33:19 From scaling your business and it's not always you don't always need a rebrand. You don't always need a new identity. But checking in and making sure that you're where you're supposed to be is such a powerful tool to be able to step forward confidently and ultimately brand confidence is the is the most important and valuable thing that you can bring to a meeting. You show up knowing who you are what you're about what you're selling why your audience need it and if you're able to show up to a conversation with your audience and answer.

33:48 Their problems and their needs articulating the better than even they can that's when you know your brands in a strong place. And if you're not able to do that, that's when you start to go. I don't want to go to networking events. I don't want to go into this investor meeting because you start second-guessing and you start doubting who you are as a business and that's where branding is is so important.

34:08 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's it. I think that's really helpful to have that insight and it's interesting earlier as the start you you're like let's separate for that. You know, we spent the.

34:19 Branding from the visual identity and that seems like that's a common trap that people can fall into and I think it's a common trap. If you're using AI for branding because AI is basically reliant upon the data. It's trained on it's going to have more data around visual identity than it is going to be around actually important to brand identity in this of this idea that how you deliver things how you do your communications. Is even more powerful in terms of how people know your brand to you think is the apples in the Google's you don't really think about yes, we are is got an apple but

34:57 when you think about actually you think more about how they do things other than their visual identity that's so often particularly small businesses it becomes about this thing about how does it look which may not necessarily match how we deliver on, I think that's a challenge. If we like you said,

35:15 if you're not having a conversation, with your with people and saying okay what do you think i do or you know when i say this to you what does that what does that mean to you mean to you with what you've seen on my social media what what is it what am i all about what is this company all about if those things don't match up and i

35:34 think often that is the case and this is the challenge of it's classic isn't it i mean a small business i've got an idea right like you said earlier i've got an idea this is great i can do this i can use ai get myself a logo oh i can get yeah great i've got this nice logo it kind of fits so it fits to to be like this idea of going around somebody's house and had this um with my

35:56 first wife where we looked around a house for a build that's um there's a recommendation for a builder we were going to use and we were like yeah it's great and then somebody else says how do you know not what you mean because well you're seeing the finished thing you have no idea what's behind those walls or what's holding them up or anything else and that sort of thing so there is that danger that

36:21 we we can walk into a space use a tool again in it's it's it's not about saying i i i cannot do these things but if we don't give it sufficient context if we don't come at it actually with a view of what our brand identity is in turn outside of our visual identity yeah it could create something that's coherent in terms of

36:43 visually but yeah but then what do you do you go out and then people go yeah okay great oh it's not working for me when and all the things that you said where you're finding it's actually things are not quite right you're second guessing because actually with what you're speaking about isn't actually lined up with the visual identity i also think it depends on where you're at in your

37:06 journey as a as a business organisation or individual if you're starting out and you're doing something that's not going to work for you then you're not going to be able to do it right even if you're getting something at home for yourself in the evenings and you're seeing if there's a side business that's got some legs like go on to fiverr and get a cheap logo like go in

37:21 and get a web template go and use ai to build version one of what you're thinking like if that's your your first step into going i want to try out what this business could look like it's a perfect tool but it it has a ceiling it's about knowing where that's going to take you and then going right this is working i've quit my job i'm doing my job i'm going to stay here i'm coming back i'm

37:43 my job we're doing really well i'm hiring an assistant or we've got team members that are doing x y and z i now need something that feels more honest and accurately me and i'm not going to get that without giving some of what we're trying to build into coming up with all of these ideas giving a part of our dna to a studio creative freelancer that can articulate us

38:11 ready to share it with the outside world so it's not that ai isn't a form that isn't a useful part of that process but i think it's knowing where to use it in the place that you are with a business at the time because i i want to be really clear like i'm not here hating on it but there are there are some ethical concerns there are some moral concerns and there are

38:34 some creative concerns and it's about staying within the realms of as a human i want to be using appropriately and in the right places to do good work i don't want to be reliant on it and i also don't want to take over the world with data centres absolutely ruining landscapes because well we have to have the latest tool and to your point earlier we're being told we need this it's

39:00 like did anyone ask for it was anyone struggling to be productive and creative yes we're speeding things up but to what end and and without trying to grow the conversation into a bigger and more worrying subject it serves the stakeholders and the investors in ai to tell us that we need it and and it opens a bigger question of do do we need this is this useful is this harmful and as a tool

39:29 i still think it's a it has a brilliant functional capacity that we can all utilise and learn from but as as a replacement for speaking to our audience asking for advice learning and growing i just don't think it's there and the best thing you can do for your business is speak to your audience don't assume

39:48 don't hypothesise have a conversation have a survey meet them in person because ai is speculating and and to talk to rory sutherland's point that he made recently attacked by southwest everything that feeds the large language model tools is data and data comes from things that have already happened brand growth happens in the space where things

40:11 haven't happened yet and if we're going to create something magical and different and unique it doesn't come from looking behind us that can be an influence but it shouldn't be the output and and i i believe very strongly that we are the most creative part of that process and like you creating the sign behind you brilliant but what that did is it unlocked the

40:35 the creativity in you to go and do it it just facilitated it because it's a tool but the creativity was there in you to do it and that's no different from going well the crayons that I gave my son when he was one allowed him to do his first crazy artwork on a piece of paper like it's a it's a different location in time but it's a tool to create something and it that's the magic

40:59 of it and I think if you are able to harness that and enjoy it as part of that creative process great but that's where I think the magic in it is it shouldn't be a replacement it shouldn't be unload for us to lean into to outsource our thinking but it's still it's still it's not going to go anywhere there's too much money in it there's too much too much opportunity there for it

41:20 to disappear and rather than acting scared of it or spending fifty thousand pounds a week in tokens see where it fits in your process and and use it appropriately and that's that's what AI is it's it's there for your process to feed into what you're doing and and add something in a creative way for for your life and your business yeah absolutely and I think this

41:46 element of they love that we said there about thinking forward that your brand is a future thing and I think that's a really important way that we look at AI to say well it is we are looking at historical historical data whether it's creation whether it's innovation that at the moment there there there is AI will hit a ceiling in terms of like the data sensors they are not

42:12 going to be sustainable unless there's innovation that makes them sustainable so that so there's kind of there's this kind of crazy situation where AI is needed to support that innovation but it is something doesn't exist so I can't give the answer because it's like what how is it going to know because it can't know because it doesn't exist so so

42:34 so people are going to have to come together and utilise the tools they have to innovate to to find some way if they want to be able to continue the growth of our because otherwise it will hit a ceiling but you say we don't know and this is the the anyone that is absolute about what's going to happen with AI is is and they could be right but I would say it's unlikely

43:00 because nobody really understands nobody knows how far it's going to go nobody knows if you know we're in this hype phase when it we could end up in a continuous hype phase we don't know because we it's this is we're in this uncharted territory which is why it's so interesting to have these conversations you know with you and I think and it's been and

43:20 it's been great I was thinking just now I was thinking oh yeah we could talk about so much more I was thinking actually you know I think uh you really rounded it off really well in terms of how we couldn't can't use AI and there is that we've got to make our own choices and as you said it's something we can use that is going to enable us to take the first step in something that we

43:39 wouldn't take otherwise and then we can then build that in the future I've used it for specking for going okay I want something inspecting something for a designer or specking something for to put on Upwork on Fiverr to get me the result I want because to be fair in the in the past my specs were pretty bad because it's not something that I do I'd give a better description now I can give

44:04 my generated um proposals back most of which are pretty poor so so if I and so there is a downside a lot of those ones if it seemed if it's right really quick I'm like that was really too quick for you to put some thought into this and isn't to say there's anything wrong with using out for that but at least make sure you've read it and you've gone back and read my spec and just make

44:25 sure they match up because if you haven't actually given me what I asked for in that in that in the more detrimental for you than it is positive it'll also make you question whether they're going to put the quality and energy into the output that you've asked them for and this is the thing like yeah and I'm conscious of time so I won't go on this too much but if as a designer

44:51 I do something really quickly should I pay more or less for that and the argument is I I sorry I should be paid more for that because I've achieved something I've answered a need really quickly and the the the problem can be solved in a shorter amount of time therefore it's more valuable to a business for argument's sake but then we use AI so it's been handed off to an AI tool that does it in

45:14 seconds so should that be more expensive because it's been done really quickly or do you go well actually I'm going to spend 10,000 hours on this so that's more expensive because I've spent more time on it and it opens up a really interesting debate about time versus value because if it's the right answer and AI has created that that output

45:34 and it's perfect then that's really valuable so if I've done that through a prompt should I get be should I be paid more as a creative studio giving that output or is it because I've just able to put prompt in and it's only done in 10 minutes and I've got the rest of the afternoon off should I be paid less and that again is a really interesting topic and the the thing for me about AI is so many

45:56 interesting thoughts and ideas and opportunities that come from it good and bad but I think you should be spoken about I be sitting around having a coffee and chatting about it joining a podcast and having that conversation because the way that we decide where it sits in our in our lives we we have to make

46:16 those choices as people as humans and I think that if we rely on AI for all our answers and we go AI is this right should we be using AI we're handing off that thinking and that's that's the murky future that I want to avoid yeah yeah I it's interesting to quite a mess of how you say it's a whole nother conversation about the whole value bad pricing and that side of things and I've heard

46:42 some people talk about that with AI it could end up being it's a token based so it becomes like almost like knowledge tokens so actually people pass on the cost so there's a one part of like you know the value provided and the other part is that the um is the cost to using the AI to do that but but it but ultimately I do I do believe that

47:08 if if you can give someone if you can provide somebody something that is what it is that they need not just what they want but what it is that they need it's the result that takes them a next step further and achieves what it is for them what they they're looking for then that's that's huge value and that's the that's the challenge isn't it it's not it's sometimes people don't

47:30 see that sometimes people don't see that sometimes people don't see that sometimes people will say well if I you know I've had it before you know what people will say well that's only going to take you 10 minutes you're thinking yeah but those 10 minutes took me 10 years you know to be able to do that and do that thing in 10 minutes to give you the result

47:43 took me that was a 10-year journey for me to get to get here and that's it yeah and you said there's a challenge with AI to say well just because AI has compressed all this knowledge doesn't make it any less valuable it's an interesting debate I I still sit on the side of creativity is an earned exercise I think you work hard to be creative and you work hard to

48:07 to give a creative output so I I don't attribute as much value to AI output but not because it's less valuable I just something fills off if there's a disconnect between me and the output because I don't think it's real um humans haven't fed that directly and and if anything AI has that information and learned from sources that it didn't pay for for me to take that information and

48:36 again that's where I feel a bit bit uh conflicted but it's not a small topic it's not it's not a one one episode conversation for sure no no I think well I think we should definitely uh yeah we should definitely have you have you back and kind of continue that conversation because I think to really hear some of those perspectives from a creative somebody that's working in the

48:59 brand space I think is really important to me and I think it's really important to me and I think it's really important and this is the point of the podcast is is let's have the conversations because hopefully it'll reach some people and they'll go actually yeah that's a good conversation to have because you've mentioned it a few times but the the key thing is we have a choice right

49:16 we are we are part of the conversation we're part of the journey of what AI becomes of what any technology becomes or what the world becomes we're not well yeah we can be bystanders but if we're bystanders we can't really complain about what we end up with but actually we can probably be participants in in actually shaping those uh you know those

49:37 things that to come so yeah thank you so much and for joining me in the heat where both of us are melting and uh for those watching listening we said you know we'll we'll see how far we get before we melt and this has been the longest episode so far so we enjoy the conversations but uh yeah we'll have to kind of continue those yeah absolutely thank you very much for having me

49:56 I've enjoyed the chat it's uh it's a lovely topic I love chatting about and so yeah sorry it's uh the conversation's gone on but I could chat about this for hours so I really appreciate you giving me the chance to jump on and let's have a chat and catch up again it's been it's been really awesome thank you yeah just finally before we go what how can people get

50:16 in contact with you if they want to learn more about things you've talked about or if they want support with their branding what I assume I share most of my thinking and ideas on LinkedIn just under Adam Jennings I've got a nice black and white photo of me Instagram also as Adam Jennings and then my website for the studio is www.madebycontour.com

50:37 you see what I'm up to there amazing thank you Adam and yeah all the links will be also um on YouTube and on the podcast platforms as well so yeah go and find Adam and have some more interesting conversations thank you cheers