Everybody believes they're failing at technology. Well, if you're not using AI, you're getting behind if you're... What do they actually need to be using? A machine, and therefore surely it should be good at numbers. And it's like really bad, really bad with numbers. Yeah. Oh dear. It's that relief of like, it's okay to have the tech that fits you. Let's uncover what is better with humans. In this episode, we welcome Helen Adshead, who my wife and I first met almost four years ago. And she and Julia have continued to stay in touch. Helen is a purpose and strategy coach, digital advisor, and former bakery founder with a background in technology and systems thinking. After nearly a decade of running a gluten-free and dairy-free bakery, she made the transition into helping others align their work with their God-given purpose. Helen now works both as digital advisor for Norfolk County Council's Go Digital programme, helping businesses use technology more wisely, and as a coach supporting individuals and leaders to discern what truly matters in a fast-moving and tech-driven world. Welcome, Helen. Welcome. Thank you. So we were just chatting a bit earlier. It's so interesting that we end up covering stuff and wishing we'd click record. Yeah. And what would be really just interesting, just to one of the things that we did start talking about was this approach to technology. So you mentioned about with your experience with Go Digital, maybe you can share some of that in terms of the challenges you see when it comes to and the mistakes that are made when it comes to approaching technology. Yeah. So the Go Digital programme is part of a government scheme to get small businesses more au fait with technology because then that actually improves their productivity and gives some power to the business owners. So as part of that, I get the joy of meeting all types of business owners from your painter and decorator to somebody running a small cafe to somebody running an electrical solar panel installer. I've met a whole range. And the things that I found in common is that everybody believes they're failing at technology, which is quite a shock. Some of them really aren't. And as part of that process, so we start a process where I do an audit with them that I go through what technology they're using, to which I find they're mainly apologising for not using social media better or whatever it is. And as I learn about their business, one of my questions is, what do they actually need to be using? And I think social media is a perfect example. As a small business, you're often told, or even a medium-sized business, you're told, you must be on all the platforms and you need to be doing this and posting three times a week and everything else. Well, for a local painter and decorator, actually, there is no reason for them to be on half of those platforms. Actually, there are things that are more beneficial to them, like Google Business Profile or Bing Places, or you've got Nextdoor as an organisation that you can be on. That's much more beneficial to them and their conversion to sales than actually if they were doing beautiful gardens on Instagram, or beautiful rooms on Instagram. It just doesn't necessarily work, but there's still that pressure that they've felt they've been told that they're failing a business because they haven't done social media. I think that's quite a difficult thing for them to be able to go, okay. And so part of my job is literally go, it's fine, close the Facebook account that you haven't used for four years. And they're like, what really? And it's that relief of like, it's okay to have the tech that fits you. So rather than you believing you have to do what the tech wants, you can take control. Yeah, I've already said I had some great soundbites there. So I love that. I love that tech that fits you. Yeah, I think that that is such an interesting concept, isn't it? That we would go into a shop, I was in a charity shop the earliest day with my oldest daughter, you go into a shop. And if there's things that you will either go, you like, you like, you don't like, when it comes to clothes, you look at them and you go do I like and do I not like them, how functional are going to be? What do I need it? And then you're also going to try on and this idea of seeing technology of what fits as opposed to you walking into a charity shop and somebody going, standing there going, look at this lovely jacket. Let me put this jacket. Oh, it's brilliant. Look, it's how it fits you. And it's all baggy. And yeah, and it's interesting, we can get that with technology, can't we that we don't, particularly if we're getting information from other areas that aren't necessarily understanding what we really need. And yeah, and that was really shocking, actually, when you said about the, that they believe they're falling at technology. Yeah. And, and there is this, as you say, so much language. And I mean, I, I certainly see a lot of my feed around AI that's well, if you're not using AI, you're getting behind if you're, you know, that you need to use AI to 10 times your product, your production and all these things that are really marketing messages. And that, and if we don't understand that, we don't see it, then we treat it as, oh, yeah, I've got to do that. Certainly social media, I mean, it's been years, hasn't it? Oh, yeah, be on it. Or you're going to miss out. And that's a brilliant analogy of what you said that certain people, particularly tradespeople, I mean, I've got an example of someone at our church, and he's, he's got videos of over a million views on Instagram of him tiling. And yet he doesn't get much work, any work out of the Instagram, he enjoys doing the videos and the satisfaction of getting a million views. But then when you realise that a lot of the people watching those views are people that find it satisfying. Yeah, watching somebody tile sped up. Yeah, they just enjoy it. And they go, oh, they find it really satisfying. And they're not, they're not their purchases. They're not the customers that you're appealing to. Yeah, I mean, as a perfect example, you know, when you speak to people, there is this you get to camps, you get those that have tried it, don't really understand it. And you have get those that are terrified of it, because I think it's going to somehow take over the world. And it's like, actually, there's this middle ground that you have to kind of lead people to that actually, it is a tool, you know, I'm sure if I, if I if I picked up a washing machine from the kitchen and took it back to the Roman times, they'd all be terrified of it. But you know, they'd rather grab their bucket and a stone and whatever else they need to go and do and that kind of thing. But actually, when you understand that the washing machine can save you time, now, that's great, fantastic tool, but you don't you don't sort of sit there and go, oh, well, this is it, the washing machine is now going to take over the world, it's going to cook my dinner, it's going to cook. It just doesn't do all of those things, just because it inhabits the same space in your kitchen doesn't mean that it can do everything else. And it's, I think, slowly teaching people that AI is a tool. And actually, if you find the right tool, then you get the best out of it. But still, you still have to like sort the clothes, because we all know that if you drop a red sock in the middle of your whitewash, then what you're getting back isn't any use. And AI is exactly like that. And it's just being able to be relaxed about it, but then also understand that it's finding the right, you know, the right tool for the job. And you know, I think there's a lot where people are like, oh, you want to use this and you want to use that. And there is a lot of noise, particularly around AI. And there are some amazing tools out there. And I am a I am a complete tech lover, and I will go off and I will try all of them, you know, that my favourite thing is somebody recommends me a piece of software. And off I go, I need to go and try and play with it. Some of them I like some of them don't suit me. But actually, as an advisor, I get to be able to work out what they need and what suits them. And, you know, there are tools which are set up to be more supportive of dyslexia, there are tools which are, you know, and so therefore you can you can mix and match to actually get those things easier. So it's just like, Yeah, so I actually I'm a big fan of AI. I like to see what it can do. But I also think that the thing that AI can never be is human. You know, the one thing that humans have that always trumps AI is we're as unpredictable as anything. You know, our unpredictability is our superpower against AI. You know, I am a person that is very easily distracted by lots of shiny things. And I know that I can walk into a room and forget what I'm there for, because I've seen something and I'll get distracted and go and do that task. And AI doesn't have that ability to be distracted. It can only respond back to what you're prompting it to do. And therefore that gives it a safety and a security. It's learnt a lot of information about us. I'm very glad about that. It saves me a lot of time having to search stuff. But yeah, it's it's something I kind of like to play with. But also, I'm not scared of it. So yeah, it's very helpful to look at it, as you say, in terms of it's it can never be completely human. And one of the things that I had somebody speaking about recently was because AI does pattern recognition, and actually its results are all statistical on a statistical basis. So it's basically like, I think I've got an 89% chance that what respond back to the user is what they want. But I'm doing it based upon thinking what I think they want based on what they've given me. And sometimes it gets they can get it completely wrong. And we talk about that as hallucinations. But actually, it really is just it's making it's making a guess. And I found it really interesting that when we look at AI, and we think actually, it's it's making a guess there's white, there's there's obviously ways that we can do to improve its ability to get that information accurate. And like pointing into particular information. But that really, I found that so helpful. When you think of it as saying it's guessing, then when it gets it wrong, you're like, okay, it made a guess, how can I, how can I respond in a prompt? How can I improve that prompt to give it to statistically improve the chance of getting a better guess? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and also, depending on which AI system you're using, I kind of feel they're all very slightly different in tone and emphasis and accuracy and clarity and that kind of thing. You know, I described it the other day, to someone like dog breeds. Chat GPT is a little bit like your labrador, it gets very excited. And it's like, we'd like to help you let me come and play, you know, and would you like to do this? Would you like to know that? And it wants that extra attention and that interaction. Whereas I feel like Claude AI, currently my favourite, that's a little bit more like a border collie, you like direct it where you want to go, and it will get the job done. It's quite clean and efficient. And you know, it gets the sheep in the pen, as long as you've told it which pen where and what you want, it's quite good at that. Whereas I find Copilot is a little bit more like a terrier. It's quite energetic, quite fast is great for a task. So it's just like, but the thing is, is people get addicted to the way that one of them speaks to them. It's like having a friend that you know, how they speak, and you get used to that. And I've certainly had people slightly unnerving who are like, well, I had a long chat with Chat GPT, as if they're having a long chat with you or I, and it's just like, okay, you do understand is, it's not real, it's not having emotions, it's prompting you with the expected responses, because it's learned and looked at conversations and large language models across so much data, that it gets used to us. I think it's the first time, the one thing I always remember that I have to tell the AIs is I am British English. Because actually, my cultural conversation is very different to my friends in America. And that difference comes through in the response that I need and want to be able to make it valuable to me. So it's just, yeah, it's just that, that whole thing of, you know, just make sure you don't drop the red sock in the white wash is really important. Because you don't want all pink. Well, and it happens, right? You do get all pink. And then you can be like, oh, well, why doesn't it understand? And it's, yeah, and it can be fun. I found that frustrating. And as I say, remembering, it's just making a statistically making a guess. Yeah. And you know, okay, it's guessing, right? Okay, then you don't need the expectation is lowered in terms of the response. And there's a kind of number of different ways we could kind of go on from there. One of the things that comes to mind is what two things really one is personalisation. So you covered that a little bit in terms of setting the personalisation in AI. So it knows your British and English, and how you want it in terms of I've just, you're talking about playing with new things. I heard of open claw before, but it came up again the other day. So it's like, okay, fine. I've now set myself a, you know, an open plot agent called Sebastian, who's modelled modelled on Sebastian from the Little Mermaid, just because I thought that would be fun. And then the interesting thing about that is that I was talking to a friend, he goes, well, you want to be careful that you don't humanise it because you're personalising this, this character. So now I've updated the personalisation to put it in there to say, to actually get it to remind me part of its job is to remind me that it's that it's AI to remind me that it's limited to remind me that it's not human. So that I get that reminder rather than like you say, if you are talking to AI, and you're wanting the human responses, it's going to try but it's still guessing. Which is why sometimes you'll get a response guy just knew exactly what I wanted. Well, that's what it's trying to do. Yeah, it's not. Yes, that's the most it's really, it's being the human. It's been the kind of you know, sometimes you want the human friend that is just tells you what you want to hear. Yeah. But most of the time, you want the human friend that is really honest with you. And you know, whatever you get from them is going to be, you know, you strike me as you know, that's our person, you're like, I'm going to say it as it is. Yeah, this is what I think. And that that's a really valuable thing. But AI doesn't do that, because it's trying to get you to interact with it more and more. And that doesn't mean that it's going it's trying to Oh, well, that's Yeah, so that's another thing there, isn't it? That, you know, that's a whole another thing, which is, as remembering that, if we look at the companies, a lot of them that are building AI, or the ways that are behind the building of the AI, and what we've seen recently with, with Meta and the, the core and the whole addiction side of things. Yeah, there is still a bias towards asking you, do you want what else do you want me to do? Do you want me to do this? Do you want me to do that? Do you want me to? I think this could be helpful. But at times as well, as you say, there's an element of it. Yeah, kind of drawing you in again. And that comes back to the other the other other point from the personalisation, the, the fact that you, you said something, I had a long chat with Chat GPT, yes, this, how do we stay connected to, to, to, well, how do you generally stay connected with people? When we're how to make sure that we, what are your thoughts on how we stay connected with other people and not get drawn into just a, an online digital world that we don't interact with other people? I think I'm a forever an extrovert. So, so for me, it's probably easier than all of my introvert friends. I genuinely need more people to in my life. And so for me, I find that one things I had to be really careful of particularly doing the audits and getting to know the clients very easily and having that rapport was that, yes, I've got a transcript running that's recording everything and translating it so I can feed it and then interrogate that later. But actually being able to see people and connect to them, you know, we're not sat there with like an AI avatar, we are actually humans. And I think it's in, it's in idiosyncrasies. That's the bit that is my delight is actually knowing how people work slightly different. So yeah, so it's for me, it's just connecting. Obviously, I go outside of the computer, I do leave the house. I go dancing and I also go to church and both give me great joy in slightly different ways. And yeah, I think there's that moment of just remembering that there is actually a world full of humans that a lot of them are feeling lonely. And that actually joining networking groups or things like that just gives you that moment to step outside. I like doing training courses, even though often I go to the training course, just because I know most of the subject, but I enjoy going to sort of meet others that are looking in that area, because then we're of similar likes. So yeah. Yeah, that's, that's such a valid point in terms of there is something that AI can help you can make or pretend that it's like minded in terms of because it's but reality is, we do have this thing inside of all of us that we want connection in a place where we're in a place with people that are on the same wavelength that we can connect with. It doesn't matter whether extra introvert or extrovert. Yeah, okay, we, we might be more different, different people that we can go to. And, and, you know, my time is often almost too filled up with me going out and meeting up with somebody different. Yeah, but, but even if we're introvert, the introvert side of things, it's, there's still that when you there's that somebody that gets you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it is in the weird things, you know, it's never in the, you know, like, I think that's the thing is AI can't do that jump from, it can do the predictive, you know, it can have the conversation about the weather with you, you know, the British are phenomenal at that, we can talk about the weather and we can talk we are great at queuing, it can do all of that type of stuff, because that's what it predicts you to be interested in and want to do. But what it can't do is tell you that weird little story that you got up to the thing that made you laugh. It doesn't have those it doesn't have that connection, you know, I often think of AI, it's like an expert with a nine year old brain, it comes across sounding like it's great. And it's really experienced. And that's the thing that actually what sometimes it comes out with is, is not very useful. And you have to check all the output of it. Because it, you know, it's also, at times, now I can talk a lot, but at times is extra talkative, and therefore just fills you with far too much text that you don't need. But yeah, I think, I think it's the little things that connect us, it's never the big things. And AI just doesn't just doesn't give us that it doesn't give us, it can talk about what a value is, but it can't work it out in process in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's really important. I think, in that we said you said about that staying connected is the little things, it's the nuances that AI can't do. Now you could spend hours and hours giving it more and more information about you about your stories you can do all those things. And it will can be able to, you know, do the path of recognition, do guesses at what you want to hear and pull in some of those things that you've done and say that it resonates with those things. And actually, that's one of the things that in the personalisation for this, for Sebastian, the open floor is that in that personalisation, I've put in there to not do that feeling based stuff. Yes, you know, deliberately, because it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel anything. So actually, that helps to stay, keep that objective and say, well, look, it doesn't really, it doesn't really understand. And yeah, as you say, you can get the over information. And one of the things that is as well as we talked about how to stay connected, and this is thing of identities, as well as in there of terms of well, if we're, if we're kind of taking on board, yes, the AI is giving us bearing in mind that this is I read some statistic, I haven't this isn't verified statistic, but I think it was on like, well, I think it's like BBC or something. Yeah, but it was something around like 80% of what AI is getting is getting from Reddit. Yeah, so so I was like, well, if you're getting so you're getting all this different information, depending how much and it weights it, you know, so it's okay, well, this information seems like it's probably more valid. Because maybe there's the number of it or the source of the information. And so you if you're not building this, this, and people do that, I've mentioned on a previous podcast, we're building relationships with, with chat bots, but it's, it's only if really a one way relationship, even though it's just it's like standing in a mirror almost, isn't it? And talking to you talking to yourself almost, which might be satisfying for a while. But I just wonder and what your thoughts on what is that? What can that do to your identity when you're, you're not actually, you know, when you're being fed kind of things in a way that is predicting what it is you want to hear? Yes, a part of the work that I do is actually on identity for people, I think that understanding who you are, is inherently really important for what you're giving to the world. Because when you know what you're here to do, what your purpose is, then actually that helps you. I think that if you are only hearing back good things, then you never have anything to work on. And we are humans. And the one thing that we're all fantastic at is not being perfect. You know, that's, that's very vital to us, because it's in solving those problems and working against those things and how we overcome things that our identity grows. You know, I, I was always struck by when the Eden Project began, they grow trees inside the big bubble, and they were weak and weedy because they forgot about the power of wind. If you have nothing to, like, go against, then you don't grow strong. And, and I think that if you are constantly fed something which is anaemic, you know, if it's echoing it back, if you're talking to a mirror, it's, it's not every flavour under the sun, it's not difficulty, it's not different things, then, then you don't, you don't get to grow. And I think the, I think that, that core identity is in the experiences that you've had and in the interactions that you have with other people, you know, that person that on the very first meeting drives you absolutely up the wall, but actually learning how to get on with that person gives you tools and skills that later on become really valuable for you then to be able to grow and, you know, deal with other people that are similar, you know, you learn. I think if you're always just reflecting back at yourself, you don't learn in the same way. And obviously, from the faith side, for me, you know, I, that inherent belief that we are here for a purpose, and as soon as you put us under, under God's authority, then suddenly that purpose and that vision becomes available to you and who you're designed to be, that then frees you from stress, mental health, everything else, because it doesn't make your life easier, but it gives your life the next step. And sometimes people just don't have that next step. And, and I think that when you understand what you're there to try and achieve, you can then, you know, strategy person, so you can then work it back into what you need to do to get there. And I think, yeah, if you're stuck just reflecting a mirror back or just something predictive, you need that unpredictability, you need that chaos. You know, one of the titles I often refer to myself is I am a mischief coach, you know, I literally allow people to borrow my map, my brain for a bit, because actually, what I will do is I will encourage them to, you know, the box will be over there, and I'll encourage them completely out of it, to look at what they actually want to achieve. So they might not like what I'm going to say to them. But actually, that challenge is what will make them achieve where they want to get to. So Yeah, yes, quite a few things unpacked there. One of the things that struck out to me was the the difficult person. And, and actually, what a what a great way to reframe that to turn and say, Oh, I've got this person at work that's difficult. When you think here, well, okay, if I can figure out how to work better with this person, then that's a win for them. It's a win for me. And actually, I get to grow. And I think that's an interesting thing, isn't it that we we don't want to ideally, and it isn't people would historically people like, like face the fear and do anyway, but that's not really what it's about is it's not about fear. It's about saying, Okay, here's an opportunity for growth. Yeah. And I think I agree with you say that there is there are opportunities to grow using AI. But if we but if but if we don't, well, first, if we don't check the output, if we don't understand what it's giving us, if we're using it for filling in the answers to, you know, to to tests and things, well, that doesn't really, that doesn't really help us. I mean, it might show we might in the short term, you know, get a job, but then in that job, we've got to deliver on the things that we they're expecting us to be able to do. And so I think that, you know, that they how we use it. And then that kind of ties in what you're talking about with values and purpose. If I certainly find that I like to work with people as well with values and purpose, because I believe if I know my values and my purpose, and the mission or where I'm going. And it's almost like you've made the road narrower. Yeah, therefore, yeah, then you shut the noise down. Yeah, it's easy to make decisions. It's a bit like otherwise, I never had one. Remember those those balls? They're like those, but you could shake the number eight balls. Yeah, yeah, number eight balls, and it would give you a decision and you think if you're not careful, life becomes a bit like that. And if you're using AI to make the decisions for you, the danger is that's what you're doing is shaking a ball, which and then just it just comes up with the most you know, the it's best prediction of what it thinks you can do. You know, I mean, the thing that I use AI for isn't for that kind of that kind of thing. What I use it for is the boring jobs that I just cannot be bothered, you know, the things so I use it as an editor, I get it to double check things for me. If I want to take information and present it in a different form, fantastic. It does that. If I want it to find me 10 useful quotes within a series of text, wonderful. You know, if I want a picture generated, you have to get the prompt so right to get a picture generated that you actually want. But, you know, I can do that without me having to sit there in front of, you know, paint or whatever and try and actually make a useful picture. So it's, you know, I use it really very much as a tool to assist what I am doing anyway. I don't use it to tell me how to do stuff. I so I do bits of coding for different things as well. I've never let go of my programming that's always come along with me. And recently, I had an error and I could not find it. And I'm usually pretty good at debugging errors. And in the end, in disgust, I opened AI for the first time to help me with my coding and I dropped it all in and was then very embarrassed that one of the very rookie errors that you're told to check, which is your variable names and the capitalisation of them. And that was the error that I'd actually slipped up on. And I felt like, great, that's wonderful. Like, I mean, it picked it up, but it was just that moment of like, Oh, I'm slightly embarrassed that that's the area you're telling me about. I thought it was going to be more complicated. But it was just like, actually, it saved me time. And it did the job that I wanted it to do. Now, if I had asked it to write what I wanted, the programme I have, I have tried that to see if I could run that concurrently at the same time as me programming. And the amount of time that it took me to get the AI to actually produce the code, was a lot longer, because I want it clean, I want it everything else. That's because I'm tech technical. However, there is now a series of tools that are coming out, where you don't even have to see the code, you can you can pretty much talk to it. And it will generate you an app, it will generate you different things. And I haven't yet fully played with all of those. But I've definitely got plans to play. And I think that, you know, that opens the door to removing some of those moments and skills that people need, but allows you then to be fully creative. You know, in the same way that I'm doing with business owners, I'm removing the issues they're having with their back end of their business. You know, the salon owner doesn't really care about her social media, she cares about her customers looking good when they leave. You know, so it's, that's what she wants. I'm just taking that noise and quietening it down into tools that actually make the booking process so she doesn't have to do that, you know, step by step herself, you know, that I'm making sure that she captures reviews and there's other bits of information that's going on. So it's, you know, her prices are right across everything, you know, that kind of thing. You can use AI to do all that checking in seconds, in a way that that saves her time to book another client. That seems sensible to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the, there's a sort of two approaches, I think, that you covered there. One is the checking. And one is the thinking. So that's the thing, isn't it? We don't want to take away the checking, the thinking or the decision making, because those are the things that actually it is not so good at. I mean, this is one of the classic things, isn't it, with AI? And I can't remember which one, I think a lot of them do it, but I know GPT does, and it says thinking, right? And it's not, and it like, if it said, you know, the processing or doing pattern recognition or, you know, what it's actually doing, whereas it says, yeah, it implies it's thinking, but it's not really thinking because it's, and it's, because it's been programmed to be as human as possible. That's that. So it's going to touch responding in ways to be, oh, I'm thinking I'm doing these things, but it's not really, I mean, I use it for, I use for some things that you say as well, in terms of, I use it for research, but I don't trust it. I mean, if I use it for try to get to try to get me some, and then I will, then I will go and follow through the sources and check to say, did it, if this is actually maybe, yeah, it probably, maybe two out of 10, I would say sources I found on average are actually, but I can, they're valid. I mean, it's not the others are not valid, but they've been assumed by a number of different, but, you know, I find it safer personally to go with here's a report, in that report, they said this, you know, so if I can get that statistic that works, whatever I'm looking for in my research, then I find that really helpful. I use it for doing some to ideation, like giving me some ideas that I can then refining that start with my idea, expanding it, refining it. And I've used it for building apps. And however, it's in all of these things. So I certainly I found with building apps are lovable, I need my technical experience, because I would still get stuck if I didn't. So that's something to be careful of is you might get something, but then it's not quite right, or it's not quite working how you want to do it, because it doesn't, it can't understand, you know, the logic necessarily. So the example being I did run an assessment app, and it, and this is twice I've happened, I've done two assessment apps, and both times, they found in the logic. Yeah, and this is weird to me, because I'm always like, hold on a minute. Yeah, it's written as a large language model, rather than a logic model. So it's like, it's used to echoing language back at you, you know, I am very much addicted to spreadsheets, I collect a lot of data, and I process a lot of data on spreadsheets. And, and I find that sometimes it is better to write it out in English, what I want it to achieve, and then put it into the code assistant, to actually then give it back to me in that. And even then, some of what comes back is just gibberish. And you're right, you need your tech ability to go, well, that's great. But that, that piece of code that you've just used there, that doesn't actually exist in this software. So that's never going to happen, you know, it's not going to work that way. And actually, if you if you loop this way through stuff, you're looking at the wrong set of data. So it's just like, it, it's, it's trying to get that fine line between what you're prompting it to do, and getting that the correct things out of it. I think there's, I saw a job the other day for a prompt engineer, that's the first time I'd seen an AI job job for a marketing department. They literally were hiring a prompt engineer for a marketing department. And it was just like, that's really interesting. So you're happy to embrace AI, but actually you need someone that is smart enough to actually write what you actually want to get what you need out of AI back. So it was, yeah, I mean, I like it for ideas, I do. You know, I think that in the same way that, you know, years ago, I remember my parents getting frustrated with my constant why questions. And in the end, they taught me the Dewey Decimal System at the library, because they took me to the library, and I learned the Dewey Decimal System. So if I wanted to go and find something or know something, I could go and look in that area, and find the source and the information. And I think that that's one of the things that's kind of missing from AI is I still like to be able to go to the source, and actually look through and evaluate it for myself. I find Gemini as an AI is the best for me for that, I can ask it to give me the sources, and it will actually give me the things to read. But yeah, it's, it does do a lot of assumptions, you're absolutely right. It's not always helpful. Yeah. And the other thing that as you saying about with the spreadsheets, the other thing that is kind of shocking, really, which again, I don't think everybody realises again, because it's assumption machine. And therefore, surely it should be good at numbers. Yes. And it's like really bad, really bad numbers. Yeah. Yes, really bad with numbers. Yeah, don't ask it to do your numbers. Don't let it do your accounts ever. Yeah, so so that and that so they think that there is assumption isn't it we make about about AI, because of the fact that it is, as we say, you know, it's a computer programme. But because by this, that thing of it's a computer programme, that's trying to predict human behaviour. So then you look at that context, and you go, Oh, yeah, we can pay behaviours kind of, you know, all over the place, it's trying, it's pulling in data from all over the world, and trying to predict what one, you know, we're having a conversation with this one particular person, what we particularly want, as you said, there is element detail, and it's interesting the example with the marketing agency, because as you said, you know, things, creating graphics and marketing, using AI needs some really good prompting, if you want to repeatedly get if you've got somebody's, you know, somebody's brand assets, and you'll repeatedly be able to create copy for them, or whatever it is you're doing, particularly graphics, then you're going to need to be able to prompt that really well to be able to produce that. So I can see why, why they would need it need those prompting, you know, as engineers, and I think that's the other thing about and something else somebody said the other day was that we don't know what the jobs are going to be. So there's a concern over people usually losing jobs. But if we look at historically, you think, well, 30 years ago, yeah, there were jobs that didn't exist. I mean, when I when I was at when I was at college, back in the 90s. And, and in the end, and in the and then there were jobs just didn't exist. I mean, there's so many jobs that just didn't exist. There wasn't there wasn't there wasn't YouTubers, there you go. Exactly. There wasn't content creators, there wasn't influencers. So I think so we do have to be careful that we don't get carried away with yes, we're in a time of change over a time where, for some people, they might be aiming at one career, and they might be now thinking, okay, what is that? What is that going to look like? But the reality is, we don't know why the jobs are going to be needed. Because as we particularly I think we were talking about, if you if we use AI, there's two ways we got for using it to actually do the not you know, get rid of noise, like you said, that gives us more time to think more times to innovate more kind times to actually create other things. And also if we use AI as a kind of as a sort of extension in terms of okay, how do I then, yeah, we can see and we will see new things created, which will allow which will create new jobs, rather than it being. Yes, there are going to be jobs that just don't not really going to make as much sense other than I think there's going to be a new job. I don't know what it's going to be called. I think in every field, there needs to be somebody checking the output. And if you don't, like you said, with the programming, if you don't have any expertise, suddenly programmers ever going to go away, because you're still going to need and this is going to be the challenge your industry is going to go well, how do I make sure that sensible? Yeah. Yeah. How do I make sure that I can programme? I can. There'll be people who want to learn programming, so they can check what AI is doing. And otherwise, there's danger. I mean, you know, they're already talking about it. And it's kind of scary. But there is this whole AI programming itself. And you're thinking, what sort of mess is that going to get into? Right. I mean, you know, do we see would we see potentially AI getting worse and worse? Because, you know, who's who's if nobody's doing the checking to say, Well, okay, that is an update. AI has come up for updating its own code. Right. But if it's not very if there is a problem with it, and I think so, I think there's always going to be the element of the marketing in marketing, you still need somebody that understands marketing to say we're not good. You know, you don't have to appeal to anybody, you know, it will just be like, Oh, that's great. But that doesn't do anything. Now, I think for me, it's that moment of the limitless possibilities, you know, as a human. Yes, AI will AI will do something, but it can't predict my unpredictable. And, and I think that is, it can't join me on on what my brain will produce, or what it will do, or the things that I will see, you know, I interact in a physical world. I so therefore, whatever I'm experiencing with that, you know, myself always used to laugh was I would solve the problems nobody ever saw was a problem. And by that, and I was like, What do you mean by that? And they they laughed and they pointed at my drink in McDonald's, that's just happened to be where the conversation has come up. And obviously, we've moved over to paper straws. And as you know, if you leave your paper straw in your drink, one, you get two things, your drink tastes funny, because it's gone flat. Because the carbonic acid has all come out. And you need that for fun, fun taste, and also fizziness. And two, yes, straw has gone soggy. Right? And so they had watched me walk in, and they're all there with their complaining about the soggy straws and blah, blah, blah. And I had lifted my straw up and turned it sideways. So it sat held at the top of the thing. And they were like, that's what you do for everything. And it's like you solve the problem, because you've seen it, you've decided it's a problem in your head, you haven't even consciously acknowledged that, and you've done that. And AI doesn't have that ability to be able to interact in a physical world that we exist in, observe something, can make a change. What it's doing is working in that world of idea and creation and that kind of space. And yet, I'm sure that if we gave it enough power, it could come up with something that somebody hasn't thought of. I love the fact that we can put a ridiculous amount of models of science into it to get it to try and work out and predict whatever the next thing is. And yes, but in the same way that humans have done that over years, they spoke about how many, I think when I went to school, I think there are 102 elements in the periodic table. There's a whole pile more now, because they've worked out how to create form, that kind of thing. So it's just like, what does that look like if you are then borrowing all that knowledge in AI and projecting that forward? I think there's some fun things to find there, but they're never going to sit in a room in a McDonald's with a drink with a paper straw and think, I don't want a soggy straw, because they just don't have that input. That input doesn't exist. And that's information that nobody's going to sit there and type that information into AI. That's just not going to happen. So it's that part that it can do so much, but yet, we're here on a physical plane, interacting with our physical world, and it's not joining us. Yeah, I love that. And as we, I think it's a perfect kind of place to do that, because of that whole consideration, yes, it can be an exciting area. So to encourage those people that are concerned about fear, there are people like yourself or myself and others that really are approaching using AI and understanding, first of all, what are your values? What are your purpose? What are you wanting to achieve with it? How can we help you achieve that in a way that is safe and comfortable for you to do so? And on the other hand, ensuring that we are with other humans, that we're not going to, when we understand our vision and purpose, nobody's going to come out with a vision and purpose that is going to be about AI, or it's going to be about something most likely that's the betterment of themselves, or even more likely other people or the world as a whole. There's going to be things that, and I think that's the thing to remember, that it's actually, which is, you know, really the concept behind better with humans, we're saying, well, look, we're not, we are better together and better as humans. And any technology is a tool can augment us. Yeah, it's a tool. Yeah, it can help us. But it's not, it's not, you know, there's no point. I'm very glad that antibiotics exists and all those kinds of tools and the very clever humans that discovered all of that, because actually, it makes us better as a human race. But still, it's something that assists us, it doesn't steal from us. And as long as we keep it in that space of thinking, then, you know, I'm glad there are people that their purpose is to learn about antibiotics and all manner of other things. But I'm also glad that there are people out there whose purpose is to play with AI and know that kind of thing, you know, but I think there is still that moment that actually life is for living. And in the months that there is joy to be had. And, you know, if AI allows you to get more time off to go and play with your family and be with your friends, and to be with other humans, then I'm all for that. A hundred percent. Yeah, amen. Definitely. So if people have found, you know, what they've heard interesting, and they want to find out more about what you do or get in contact, what's the best way for them to do that? So you can find me on LinkedIn. You can also contact me on my email address, which is Helen at WeddellAndTurner.com. And yeah, you just say hello, and we can go from there. That's the... Well, thank you, Helen. It's been really fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope others will find it valuable too. Yeah. Not too many mad analogies, at least. All right. It was all good. Thank you for your time. That's all right.